Train formation Masham branch - LNER/NER

[Nutford]

I'm building a layout embracing Masham, Melmerby and Ripon c1930, and while I don't intend to be over-exact (apologies to some, relief to others!) I'm trying to get at least a reasonable degree of accuracy where it's simple to do so. OK, VERY simple to do so lol!

 

You can get away with a lot on the Ripon line ('engineering on the ECML diversions', race-day specials, excursions etc would allow almost anything!) - but the branch train from Ripon to Masham seems an important and more precise element of the layout. This ran (according to the 1932 Carriage Roster) as a brake composite and fitted milk van from Leeds to Ripon; where it added another brake-comp, went up to Melmerby and then on the single track to Masham. Here there was a run-round loop and a turntable. The train then went back to Melmerby, where the second BC was detached and where the train (what there was of it!) then had to reverse again to take the line to Thirsk, and by that route on to Northallerton.

 

I'm assuming the loco ran tender-first back from Masham - there was as I say a turntable at Masham, but too small for the locos used post 1930 I think (42'). Nor would there seem a lot of point in turning the loco, as it would then be the wrong way round to go to Thirsk from Melmerby (where there wasn't a turntable).

 

So - I'm also assuming the initial train was loco-van-BC. But where would the second BC be added, given the loco was then going to run tender-first? On the end, so the returning train would be loco-BC-BC-van after using the loop? Or on the front, and just reverse the train without using the loop with a BC at each end? I realise there is no way of knowing, (and no photos I can find to tell me), but what would be most likely?

 

Finally - I'm saying 'BC', because that's what the LNER carriage roster says. BUT - I've noticed that there is no different entry for push-pull units. Now I know the NER did have these, and presumably they were still about in 1930. So could these 'BC's in fact be push-pull? Indeed was there a different notation for these in carriage rosters.....?

 

I know in a way 'does it really matter', but since it's just a question of putting the things in the right order on the track to 'get it right', well why not! I attach btw a pic of 'something' at Masham in 1930; 6-wheel brake? Doesn't look like a BC to me!

 

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Nutford

[Flying Pig]

The vehicle in your photo looks like an NER 6-wheel full brake.

[AMJ]

The thought of Masham being trains consisting of only a couple of carriages would appeal ideal for most modellers.

 

An idea might be the inclusion of grain wagons and box wagons for the finished beer from the brewery. Also coal in for the town and brewery. Sheep and cattle trains.

 

I bet it could also be run as a hypothetical 1970's blue era slightly reduced goods, DMU passenger and stretching truth a train bringing traction engines to the annual Masham rally.

 

Extra passenger trains could be run for the Masham agricultural show.

 

It's your toy so you can run whatever you want and when you want.

 

Hunts and footballers or V1 tanks for LNER days. BTP 4-4-0T in NER. Check Ken Hoole book on NER sheds for ideas.

[micklner]

The thought of Masham being trains consisting of only a couple of carriages would appeal ideal for most modellers.

 

An idea might be the inclusion of grain wagons and box wagons for the finished beer from the brewery. Also coal in for the town and brewery. Sheep and cattle trains.

 

I bet it could also be run as a hypothetical 1970's blue era slightly reduced goods, DMU passenger and stretching truth a train bringing traction engines to the annual Masham rally.

 

Extra passenger trains could be run for the Masham agricultural show.

 

It's your toy so you can run whatever you want and when you want.

 

Hunts and footballers or V1 tanks for LNER days. BTP 4-4-0T in NER. Check Ken Hoole book on NER sheds for ideas.

 

Footballers = B17 ? 

[MarkC]

Footballers = B17 ? 

Yes

[Boris]

Breweries, Masham had several, something about being driven to drenk

[Nutford]

Masham is indeed a very suitable site, especially for a small layout as it has a lot but is very compact. I couldn't understand why I could barely get a J39 to use the station loop as planned - until I checked the 25" map and realised a J39 could only just use the station loop lol! Even in 00 I'm building it on a section about 3' x 10', which will include all the buildings and platforms to scale and the correct  plan of the sidings, albeit truncated. And it's still there - you can see the site, station building and goods shed. The downside is after 1931 there was no passenger trains, and after 1967 no trains at all! And even when there were trains, there was normally just the one loco. Peter White has made a superb and very accurate layout in 3mm scale of which there are many pics on the net, so if I can come close to matching that I will be happy.

 

And there were exceptions. Wartime traffic was very heavy - 30+wagon munitions trains. Up to the late 1920s there were active exchange sidings to a narrow-gauge railway for building a dam. And yep, it's my railway and I can run what I like!

 

But I want to start by knowing what did run, and go from there - Masham is just one element of the layout so it doesn't dictate what I can run. Anyway, on my layout that pesky branch tank engine is going to be so unreliable they will have to use the Sentinel railcar and all sorts at times! In fact that probably IS accurate - the branch NER G5 0-6-0T was moved elsewhere in about 1929 so probably WAS unreliable... and a Sentinel DID work a roster to Melmerby where the Masham branch begins, so almost certainly ended up in Masham on occasion.

[Nutford]

Here's another pic - not sure if that is a push-pull unit or just an NER clerestory BC?

 

And I've just noticed something odd. I said above that the branch closed to passenger traffic in 1931, which is correct. I also said that the 1932 carriage roster showed the train to Masham as having 2 BCs, one of which was added specifically at Ripon. That is also correct. I can only assume that the people who closed the station didn't tell the people who sent the trains!

[jwealleans]

Your vehicle in the top photo is a D.171 milk brake. Common as the proverbial on the NER and the NE region of the LNER. Available as a kit from Dan Pinnock (D & S). The brake carriage is one of the NER clerestory types, either BT or BC. Dan does some of these diagrams, but I can't recall whether he does a BC. Bill Bedford does some diagrams as well, but don't start with one of those if you've not built etched kits before.

 

If you don't fancy etched kit building, the clerestories can be reasonably approximated by cutting and shutting Hornby clerestories, but I don't think you'll find much like a D171.

 

You mention the 1932 carriage roster - this is the one NERA publish? I don't think there's much else around apart from that. They're probably your best port of call for photos as well, at least as a starting point.

[Flying Pig]

But I want to start by knowing what did run, and go from there - Masham is just one element of the layout so it doesn't dictate what I can run. Anyway, on my layout that pesky branch tank engine is going to be so unreliable they will have to use the Sentinel railcar and all sorts at times! In fact that probably IS accurate - the branch NER G5 0-6-0T was moved elsewhere in about 1929 so probably WAS unreliable... and a Sentinel DID work a roster to Melmerby where the Masham branch begins, so almost certainly ended up in Masham on occasion.

Blimey, that's fighting talk. The NER Class O (LNER G5) 0-4-4T was a solid and long-lived design, so very unlikely to have been sacked for unreliability. More likely the impecunious LNER was trying to save money.

[Nutford]

Blimey, that's fighting talk. The NER Class O (LNER G5) 0-4-4T was a solid and long-lived design, so very unlikely to have been sacked for unreliability. More likely the impecunious LNER was trying to save money.

Yes, data is from NERA. And no insult to the G5 intended! Not sure that pensioning off a splendid old engine and replacing it with a dodgy new one would save money though!

 

Seriously - no idea why they dumped the G5 off the branch, but they did. If you believe' the records'. But 'the records' also state they continued to send two BCs to Masham, 18 months after they closed the line to passenger traffic. And 'the records' also state the branch platform at Melmerby was moved after that closure - even though the Ordnance Survey map of two years earlier showed it already moved...  Psychic, those OS guys!  

 

So just because a 'reproduced document' says something, I'm starting to lose confidence it's actually true!

 

And D&S kits seem impossible to obtain now, I understood they had ceased trading? And I tried a Bill Bedford kit once, never again. No reflection on the kit, just beyond my competence.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nutford

[jwealleans]

D&S kits seem impossible to obtain now, I understood they had ceased trading?

Untrue. Dan never stopped making and selling 7mm kits and circulates a list of 4mm ones about twice a year. There's a thread on here with the latest list. An SAE to his (unchanged) address will get you a copy of the current list and a letter explaining what you're interested in will most likely add a list of what he has 'on the shelf'. I've had clerestories and D171s from him within the last 12 months.

[Nutford]

Untrue. Dan never stopped making and selling 7mm kits and circulates a list of 4mm ones about twice a year. There's a thread on here with the latest list. An SAE to his (unchanged) address will get you a copy of the current list and a letter explaining what you're interested in will most likely add a list of what he has 'on the shelf'. I've had clerestories and D171s from him within the last 12 months.

Well thank you very much :-))  In fact it's here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/13126-ds-models/page-5

 

But I didn't make it up - there's a thread here -

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/13126-ds-models/

 

which explains he had largely ceased trading apart from some 7mm items and sold the moulds, And somewhere there's a post from 51L who bought them saying most were now worn out. Clearly that's not the whole story by a long way, and I may be spending some money! 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nutford

[jwealleans]

These things are never straightforward unless you're close enough to the supplier to hear the full story.

 

As I understand it, after Sylvia (the 'S' of D & S) died, Dan stopped the 4mm production as he wasn't sure he could cope with the administration of both ranges (and the 7mm is more lucrative).

 

Some of his 4mm kits had already gone to 51L when it was owned by Dave Scott - these are now sold by Wizard Models.

 

Many of the cast kits then went to ABS (Adrian Swain) and have not been seen since. Some did not, fortunately - the LNWR kits are now with London Road Models and some of the GC ones with the GCRS.

 

A few years ago Dan was persuaded to rerun some of the 4mm kits on a limited basis. That was successful and since then he has run a couple of lists a year, presumably timed to the quieter periods of the year. The last list circulated in August and I received my order on Tuesday.

 

Some people complain that there is no website, no facility for online ordering, etc., but his method suits himself and those of us who appreciate his kits, so long may it continue.

 

Incidentally, if you haven't tried a Bill Bedford kit for a while, have another look - his recent resin productions are excellent. He trades as 'Mousa Models' these days.

[Nutford]

A few years ago Dan was persuaded to rerun some of the 4mm kits on a limited basis. That was successful and since then he has run a couple of lists a year, presumably timed to the quieter periods of the year. The last list circulated in August and I received my order on Tuesday.

 

Some people complain that there is no website, no facility for online ordering, etc., but his method suits himself and those of us who appreciate his kits, so long may it continue.

 

Incidentally, if you haven't tried a Bill Bedford kit for a while, have another look - his recent resin productions are excellent. He trades as 'Mousa Models' these days.

 

It is easy to presume everybody wants to sell as much as possible and wonder why they don't have websites, adverts etc, but of course some people just want to sell what they can comfortably make, and why not. And yes will have another look at BB - was a long time ago, and I'm more comfortable with resin than with etchings.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nutford

[scottiedog]

The LNER (NE Area) Carriage Roster Book (1932?) states the compartment classes and this should help identify the coach diagram nos. which would have been seen on the Masham Branch at that time. I don't have my copy of this book to hand - I lent it out to someone and never got it back! - but for example if they are shown as 1/5 this means that there was 1 x 1st class compartment and 5 x 3rd class compartments. If this is the case then the coaches should be a dia.no.116, a 52' Clerestory Roofed Brake Composite, of which 36 were converted from dia. no. 14 52' Clerestory Roofed 3rds between 1904 and 1906 for NER Push Pull services. In 1908 the NER also built 18 dia. no. 162 52' Elliptical Roofed Coaches with the same class make up for Push Pull services  From memory I think that the LNER withdrew the Push Pull services in 1929 when their class G6 locomotives were scrapped. The Push Pull apparatus and the driver's compartment were removed and the coaches put into ordinary service. These coaches can be easily identified by the porthole windows at the driver's end. The photograph of the coach seen in the "station" photograph , which appears to be quite an early one, is not one of theses.  D&S Models did kits for both of these coaches.

 

Dan also did a kit for the NER dia. no. 26 52' Clerestory Brake Composite Lavatory, 2 x 1st Class and 3 x 3rd Class compartments, 30 built between 1898 and 1904. Check the previously mentioned Carriage Roster Book to see if it is this type.

 

As Jonathan has stated the vehicle in your first photograph is a dia. no. 171 6W Milk Van. Dan also did a kit for this vehicle but with a longer side duckets - the shorter one was a later variation but I don't know if this was given a different dia. no. The late John Fozzard ( North Eastern Design) produced an excellent 4mm/1ft scale RTR version of this later one.

 

David Geen also sells whitemetal kits for ex NER goods stock.

 

David Scott

[Nutford]

The LNER (NE Area) Carriage Roster Book (1932?) states the compartment classes and this should help identify the coach diagram nos. which would have been seen on the Masham Branch at that time.

Thanks Scottie, that's very useful. And yes I have that - thus I know that in 1932 the Masham train had a BC (1/4) and a BC (1/5), one added at Melmerby for the trip up the branch. What is weird is that by then (1932) there was no longer a passenger service, so why they were adding a BC to the train at Melmerby, when it already had one it didn't need, I don't get. I had thought maybe it was a push-pull unit for the branch but I think you're right, they were gone by then. So why send a train with 2 BCs as a parcels train. I can only imagine they were old coaches and they just used them as vans, or nobody had bothered to update the carriage roster. Or maybe they stuck sheep in the compartments!

[jwealleans]

Staff train, ECS or, as you say, parcels/sundries of some sort.

[scottiedog]

It is a bit of a puzzle, indeed.

 

NER Brake Composites with the 1/4 compartment make up were on the rare side. I can only find two NER dias. to fit.  These were a dia.no. 195, a 52' Clerestory Roofed coach of which there was only 1, and a dia. no. 211, a 52' Elliptical Roofed coach of which 3 were built in 1916. The larger size of the luggage compartment in these coaches lends itself theory that the two coach train referred to was for parcels/sundries traffic. However as you say why two 52' long bogie coaches when there were plenty of smaller dia. no. 171 6W vans about with the same/larger capacity

 

Search The 3mm Society - Masham Station where you will find a track plan and some photographs of a model built by Peter White - last updated 8/7/2006 but still well worth a look. 

[Nutford]

Search The 3mm Society - Masham Station where you will find a track plan and some photographs of a model built by Peter White - last updated 8/7/2006 but still well worth a look. 

 

I have indeed - and there are lots of other pics of it elsewhere as well. It is very accurate. I tried to contact him regarding in particular the engine shed, and whether he 'guessed' the detail, or has a better pic than I have, but although the 3mm society forwarded an email maybe he never got it.

 

I've only those two, and can't tell whether there were windows in the yard-facing side or not. Peter White's has windows - but in any case I now know he didn't make the buildings so may not know himself, and the chap who did has since died. I may just have to guess. I had thought I could just look at other NER timber engine sheds - but can't find a single one.

 

Nor could I work out what is leaning against the wall at the front - it's in  both pics, though I believe they were taken 5 years apart. I thought at first it was a prop holding the building up, but I'm thinking now it's maybe a ladder, (but too hefty?), or some sort of lifting frame.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Nutford

[Butler Henderson]

If you want extra traffic for the Masham branch you could always presume the narrow gauge line that was built onwards from Masham for the construction of reservoirs was still open serving local farmers in the same manner as the Welshpool & Llanfair.