Making Authentic Timetables for Fictional Lines

[FPH 603]

I model the BR North Eastern Region in the 1960's and 1980's periods. I've left out the 1970's due to the Beeching Cuts and so it has more variety.

 

EDIT: When I said in my last post about the Depot, I wasn't referring to Neville Hill, in fact I was referring to one located off one of the stations of the branch line.

Edited January 11, 2018 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[br2975]

....................and that, my friends, is why my layouts are freight only with 'trip' workings !!

.

Brian R

[FPH 603]

There's no room for freight as such, although there is still a couple of non passenger services, including departmental and parcels trains. There are some huge gaps between services too, not really my cup of tea. Still pretty helpful though.

[adb968008]

11 stations, 28 minutes.

 

So it’s suburban, in close proximity to the city.

 

The one that comes to my mind is the Manchester - Bury as far as Ramsbottom... 11 stations...30 minutes, (excluding manchester to the first station as in your arrangement).

Edited January 11, 2018 by adb968008

[FPH 603]

That looks just like the sort of frequency that my line would have. I think that the occasional express would work too, which I'd think would be similar in the way that they'd go from the terminus station straight to the junction station at the main line, then I'd probably make them continue through the main line to York. There would have to be gaps in between services to allow parcels trains and departmentals to squeeze through, and there's also other things, which I won't go too far into.

[luckymucklebackit]

I use an Excel spreadsheet to plan my workings, as it is reasonably complex.  I am happy to share this with you if you would like to see a copy.

 

Jim

[Chimer]

That looks just like the sort of frequency that my line would have. I think that the occasional express would work too, which I'd think would be similar in the way that they'd go from the terminus station straight to the junction station at the main line, then I'd probably make them continue through the main line to York. There would have to be gaps in between services to allow parcels trains and departmentals to squeeze through, and there's also other things, which I won't go too far into.

 

Yes, but ....... that Manchester-Bury timetable shows a commuter service to England's 3rd (?) biggest city through an almost entirely built-up suburban area with a high population density.  The area bears no resemblance to the your chosen north-east corner of rural Yorkshire, where one train an hour would more than adequately meet demand.  Also, I reckon that any route with more than, say, 3 trains an hour in each direction would be double tracked (as is/was Mcr/Bury).  So I'm afraid your desired services, planned track layout and geographical scenario just don't come together.  Which is not to say you couldn't be modelling a parallel universe where the junction with the ECML is in a major city (perhaps Leeds, Bradford and York all rolled together as a single regional capital for Yorkshire) and the area to the north-east along the branch has become a major commuter conurbation.  Rule 1 ......

 

Cheers, and good luck

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

I have worked out a timetable for Cwmdimbath (South Wales Valleys 1950s, passenger, coal, and freight traffic) based on the real 1960 WTT for Abergwynfi, modified to suit my own needs,  I use real time but 'condense' it between trains.  It based on some assumptions; the branch has a 40mph speed limit, but all freight/mineral traffic runs at less than 25mph, a passenger train is allowed 10 minutes to clear the section to the junction with the Tondu-Gilfach Goch branch including the time needed for the signalman there to insert the electric token key in the instument to release one for a train coming the other way, and a freight is allowed 15.  So, if for instance a passenger leaves Cwmdimbath and the next scheduled train to arrive there is the pickup goods, it will be at least 25 minutes before it arrives.  A mineral train can proceed into the section as far as the colliery ground frame about a quarter of a mile away (imagined) once the passenger has cleared it, indicated by a treadle which illuminates a light and rings a buzzer in the signal box, but cannot do so if there is a train 'on line' from the junction; this is authorised in the Rule 1 section of the Sectional Appendix.

 

Abergwynfi was about as busy as a single line branch ever got, and finding an extra path during daylight hours would have been very difficult; Cwmdimbath shoehorns a daily pickup and parcels train on top of it!  I run an occasional pigeon special in the evening sometimes.  Working to a timetable gives an extra dimension to my mind, shunting with minimal facilities having to be completed in between trains and shunting moves into the section not allowed when a train is approaching from the junction.  There are periods of 15 minutes or more when nothing seems to be happening while the section is cleared; this is completely prototypical.

 

I can throw spaniards into the works if it gets a bit boring, but rarely find the need; no auto loco available (or auto gear failed on the 64xx) so the trailers have to be run around, red carding a crippled wagon, Control wanting a van attached to or detached from a passenger train as additional traffic (which must be tail traffic in winter steam heating conditions), a failure of the treadle interfering with colliery workings.  The Rule 1 section of the SA insists that coal trains, which have to come up to the terminus to run around because of the way the ground frame points face coupled with a very steep gradient, must run the brake van around as well as the loco; sometimes things have to be planned meticulously to avoid problems.  The layout is designed for minimal trackwork and maximal (it is a word, because I just used it, ok) operation interest, and, in conjunction with the timetable, delivers; I love operating, and have barely scratched the surface of what this deceptively simple plan offers yet.

Edited February 17, 2018 by The Johnster

[FPH 603]

Yes, but ....... that Manchester-Bury timetable shows a commuter service to England's 3rd (?) biggest city through an almost entirely built-up suburban area with a high population density.  The area bears no resemblance to the your chosen north-east corner of rural Yorkshire, where one train an hour would more than adequately meet demand.  Also, I reckon that any route with more than, say, 3 trains an hour in each direction would be double tracked (as is/was Mcr/Bury).  So I'm afraid your desired services, planned track layout and geographical scenario just don't come together.  Which is not to say you couldn't be modelling a parallel universe where the junction with the ECML is in a major city (perhaps Leeds, Bradford and York all rolled together as a single regional capital for Yorkshire) and the area to the north-east along the branch has become a major commuter conurbation.  Rule 1 ......

 

Cheers, and good luck

 

Chris

I see your point. I have no experience and barely any knowledge of timetable operations on BR. This is all new to me and really I'm just doing a big trial and error to see what works best. I think for now I'll stick with one train an hour.

[adb968008]

Yes, but ....... that Manchester-Bury timetable shows a commuter service to England's 3rd (?) biggest city through an almost entirely built-up suburban area with a high population density.  The area bears no resemblance to the your chosen north-east corner of rural Yorkshire, where one train an hour would more than adequately meet demand.  Also, I reckon that any route with more than, say, 3 trains an hour in each direction would be double tracked (as is/was Mcr/Bury).  So I'm afraid your desired services, planned track layout and geographical scenario just don't come together.  Which is not to say you couldn't be modelling a parallel universe where the junction with the ECML is in a major city (perhaps Leeds, Bradford and York all rolled together as a single regional capital for Yorkshire) and the area to the north-east along the branch has become a major commuter conurbation.  Rule 1 ......

 

Cheers, and good luck

 

Chris

 

so reduce the frequency.

 

the question you should be asking is...

 

how many rural villages have branch lines with 11 stations every stop 2-3 minutes apart over an approx 14 mile distance... rural implies exactly that.. there no need for stops 2-3 miles apart as there no one there. The mid-hants for example is an 11 mile line... it has 4 stations.  York, as you mentioned, isnt a big conurbation.

Here's a more "local" example, showing an 11 mile run from Bishop Auckland to Durham, it has 5 stations

 

 

Edited January 12, 2018 by adb968008

[Dungrange]

In terms of times in between trains, for off peak services, the gap between trains would be 1 - 2 hours. However since my layout is a dual platform terminus, the trains would remain at the platform for 5 - 10 minutes, at times up to 15 minutes if the service they run goes back to the depot. Somewhere in between that waiting time another train would run into the second platform. This would give the 'All Clear' for the first train, allowing it to depart. I'd run departmental and parcels trains in between too. These would come once or twice a day. Peak hour times would be halved, meaning that trains would be only 30 minutes to an hour apart. And the trains would leave a bit quicker too, meaning they only wait a few minutes before departing.

 

Getting to York from the junction station would take about half an hour, assuming that's how far away from York it is. If I was to run only one DMU and one service, it's pointless to have a dual platformed terminus, and really there's a lack of variety. I'd prefer to have a few services or a few different trains to add variety.

 

A turn around time of 5-10 minutes is quite short for a terminus.  Upon arrival, at a very minimum, the driver will have to turn off the power in the leading cab, walk the length of the train and then start up the unit from the other end.  However, the train crew are also likely to undertake other tasks such as removing litter from the train and replenishing any food served on the train if it has a buffet or trolley service.  The driver may also require a rest break depending on how far the service has travelled.  Even if he is not entitled to a regulation 15 minutes or whatever, he may still require a quick visit to the toilet.

 

It is perhaps also worth highlighting that the quicker the turnaround at the terminus, the less resilience there is likely to be in the timetable.  That is, with a very short turn around time, any delay to the inbound service will result in a delay to the outbound service.  Conversely, the longer a unit sits at your station between it's inbound journey and outbound working, the greater the opportunity to recover from any inbound delays.  The current Scotrail shuttle service between Edinburgh and Glasgow has a journey time of between 48 minutes and 53 minutes depending on its stopping pattern and that means that the turn around time at peak times is between 7 and 12 minutes.  However, what I've noticed as a traveller is that if the inbound train is not in the platform at Glasgow Queen Street around six minutes before departure, the departing service seems to be late, which suggests to me that this is around a minimum turnaround time for peak operation.  In the inter-peak, units tend to lie over for longer. 

 

Besides, the longer a service lies over at your terminus, the more justification you have for it having two platforms.  The alternative is of course to assume that each platform serves a different location.

[The Johnster]

In steam terms one is talking about auto operation, in which case matters are simplified, or, in most cases, a run around movement or if we are at a big station close to an engine shed, a pilot or the loco taking the train back out couples on.  Running around takes a good bit of time, just observe operations at a preserved line and consider that 'real' railways were not much quicker.  Pilot or fresh loco operations also took a little while, as it usually happened at a busy terminus where finding a path for the light engine was not always immediately possible.

 

I get irritated by the practice on some layouts, even (worse) at exhibitions, of a loco running around a train at a terminus and backing on to the train it has just run around, only to propel it up the platform without stopping.  NO!!!  It must stop, a shunter must go between to couple on and connect the vacuum brake and (in winter) steam heating pipes, and the loco must then blow the brakes off, which does not take long even on a long train (but allow a little extra time for 1st generation diesels which were inferior to steam in this respect), but each operation adds to an accumulation of time.  Only then may the coaches be propelled to their boarding position and the passengers allowed access,  At some point before departure, or any movement with passengers aboard, a brake continuity test must be carried out by the guard, the brakes having to be applied and checked and then blown off again.  

 

Except for the coupling operation, none of this can be done on a model and must be imagined, but time must be allowed for it to apparently happen.  The brake test of course may well take place while the passengers are boarding and parcels are loaded into the van during the time booked for it.  But remember that time may be booked for other purposes at the terminus or a stopping station as well; waiting for booked connections or Royal Mail vans for instance, or the loco may be booked time to take water. There is more to timetabling booked time at stations than just working out how quickly the train can be got rid of and adding a bit of wobble room, except in the most basic operations.  

 

I would suggest that, for timetabling purposes, one performs the operations as realistically and to scale speed as possible and time them, then add a minute or two for timetable resilience.  This information, along with your proposed running times through the section (well, into the fiddle yard but you know what I mean), will form the basis of your timetable. and don't forget that imagined operations at the other end of the section might have an impact on clearing following traffic!

 

Many people will find all this absolutely pointless and not bother; fine by me so long as you observe correct procedure coupling back on to the train when you've run around!  But I find it adds to the fun, and makes my model of a semi imaginary place more believable.  In practice I shorten periods of 'dead' time when nothing is happening, but even so, once an outbound train has entered the section and disappeared under the bridge into the fiddle yard, some appropriate time must elapse before another one turns up incoming!  The ultimate intention is to run to the clock, using a battery analogue clock which can be reset for the shortened periods between trains.  Real time can be observed during shunting operations for the pick up, which must fit in between the other traffic or be put into a siding out of the way.  If the shunting is done early and there is spare time, I do what the real traincrew would have done, and go for a cup of tea...

[FPH 603]

Unfortunately I have no room for run around points, so what do I do then? I can only assume from what I know that I need a second locomotive to couple up to the other end and then detach the other loco trapped at the end of the platform.

[adb968008]

Unfortunately I have no room for run around points, so what do I do then? I can only assume from what I know that I need a second locomotive to couple up to the other end and then detach the other loco trapped at the end of the platform.

It’s highly unlikely the end of a minor branch line would have a shunt release loco, it would probably have been push pull.

 

If it’s was bigger than average, then there’s a chance the station may have had a shed for a loco or two at the end of the line (example Ongar) , the bigger /busier or more intensive branches could have had a more fulfilling shed /turntable, probably multiple platforms and a goods yard too (example Bacup).

 

It depends on your branch, from the sounds of it, the intended service is quite intensive.. remember the shed doesn’t necessarily have to be in the station.. it could be out of sight under a bridge... similarly a run round loop could involve a reverse out of the station (think Grimsby when nymr first started operations there), even Bolton’s parcels operations in the 90’s involved shunt reversing out of the station as the parcels line had no loop...and that was a 5 platform thru station.

Edited February 18, 2018 by adb968008

[Chimer]

Unfortunately I have no room for run around points, so what do I do then? I can only assume from what I know that I need a second locomotive to couple up to the other end and then detach the other loco trapped at the end of the platform.

 

Well, you've already told us that all services will be run by DMUs, so in one sense that's not a problem.  But it raises the question of your station layout - although nowadays there are plenty of simple passenger only dead ends operated by MUs, back in the day rural branch termini would pretty much invariably (pause for deluge of posts giving examples proving me wrong) have featured runround loops of some sort.  You couldn't operate freight services without them.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[FPH 603]

Well, you've already told us that all services will be run by DMUs, so in one sense that's not a problem.  But it raises the question of your station layout - although nowadays there are plenty of simple passenger only dead ends operated by MUs, back in the day rural branch termini would pretty much invariably (pause for deluge of posts giving examples proving me wrong) have featured runround loops of some sort.  You couldn't operate freight services without them.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Well not necessarily 'All DMU's'. I plan to run the layout during the 1960's and late 1970's - 1980's periods, in which the former will have mostly locomotive hauled services with only one DMU. As for run around points I don't have any more room to add them into the layout, but if I was to add another board to the end I could very easily add a headshunt there.

[adb968008]

Well, you've already told us that all services will be run by DMUs, so in one sense that's not a problem. But it raises the question of your station layout - although nowadays there are plenty of simple passenger only dead ends operated by MUs, back in the day rural branch termini would pretty much invariably (pause for deluge of posts giving examples proving me wrong) have featured runround loops of some sort. You couldn't operate freight services without them.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

One could always use an elephant ?

 

http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/genealogy/dibblee/elephant.gif

 

Or two..

 

https://waltsland1912.deviantart.com/art/Second-basis-726394254

 

And carry them in the train..

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_PM_183

 

 

Last time I saw Gravity shunting in the UK was in 1991.

Edited February 18, 2018 by adb968008

[Chimer]

Sorry, I hadn't seen your Kingsborough thread before - I'll read through that before confusing you any further!   

 

Chris

[FPH 603]

Sorry, I hadn't seen your Kingsborough thread before - I'll read through that before confusing you any further!   

 

Chris

The blog has more information about the layout whilst the thread has more junk.

[The Johnster]

If there was no run around (and as has been suggested it could be off-scene and trains having arrived propel back to it, then re-appear propelling with the loco on the right end), and no pilot or relief loco, some form of gravity shunting has to be involved.  The bay platform at Wellington (Salop) was shunted in this way.  The train, having arrived in the bay and disembarked it's passengers, propelled onto a headshunt with a gradient falling towards the bay.  The loco then coupled off and stood aside, and the brake van handbrake applied.  Next stage was to release the vacuum brakes on the coaches by the isolating string attached to the cylinders,  it's position marked on the solebar with a white star.  The guard then controlled the coaches' descent back into the bay with the handbrake, and the loco then re-attache to what was now the front of the train.

Edited February 19, 2018 by The Johnster