British Railways Mk1 Coaches

[sandwich station]

I believe that 3rd class was abolished in 1956, thus becoming 2nd class on BR.

My question is, shouldn't BR Mk1's in crimson and cream be 3rd class? Or any coaches in crimson and cream for that matter?

 

Looking at Hornby's and Bachmann's crimson and creams, they are all second class, not third, is this correct?

[Metr0Land]

Mk1's in crimson/cream hung around until 1964 though by then there weren't many, but well into the late 50's many hadn't been repainted into maroon.

[Bob Reid]

It's purely the catalogue description to make things easier - with BR Crimson & Cream for second read third (though as pointed out there would have been some overlap)....

[sandwich station]

So in theory, they would have been marked as 3rd when painted originally and this removed after 1956?

[Bob Reid]

No, not marked at all (at least on the bodyside) outwardly only the vehicle code on the end changed.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Bob-65b

[Fat Controller]

Would they have borne any reference to being 'Third'? My understanding was that Second existed only on some Boat Train or similar, so only exceptions to Third Class, i.e. First, would be indicated.

[chrisf]

Fat Controller is right.  A batch of 15 Mk 1 open seconds, 3500-14, was built for use in boat trains and carried the figure 2 on the doors.  Later they were upgraded to open firsts.

 

The abolition of third class happened at about the same time as maroon was introduced to replace blood and custard but as far as I am aware there was no causal connection.

 

Chris

[Bob Reid]

`Apart from the boat seconds isn't that what I said as far as Third Class Chris? No outward marking - that is except on the vehicle end - e.g. TTO changed to TSO etc..

[The Johnster]

IIRC the boat trains which retained second class long after it had disappeared elsewhere where those connecting with the Ulster ferries, so Stranraer and perhaps Heysham.  This may have been something to do with ticketing arrangements on the Ulster side.  The abolition of 3rd in 1956 was, to all intents and purposes, actually the final end of 2nd class, with the former 3rd class accommodation simply being 'rebranded' 2nd without any actual change in standards, very much like some modern marketing (you can't buy a small coke in McDonald's, it's a 'regular' because small has negative connotations in terms of value for money) (but it's still small).

 

It was certainly the end of second class branding on coaches; only first was actually shown on the doors or windows in this way, and the window branding of that was only stickers.  It was not unusual to see first class compartments with 'for the use of 2nd class passengers' labels in the windows on overcrowded trains.  Another excuse for labels in windows might be reserved compartments, but you would not usually see this except of fairly long distance trains.

 

I ought to remember when the yellow cantrail stripe denoting fisrt class, along with the red one denoting catering, came into use in the UK; the early 60s I think but it is one of those things that has fallen through the holes in the Swiss cheese which the mortal remains of my brain consist of and become lost.  It was a UIC thing standard across all European railways, and the red stripe was not especially suited to maroon livery.  I associate it with the end of steam, but it had nothing to do with that and was well entrenched several years before.

 

I tend to describe coaching stock passenger accommodation other than first class as 'second class' if I am referring to post nationalisation, and third if I am referring to pre-nationalisation, but this is not correct!

[Fat Controller]

Fat Controller is right.  A batch of 15 Mk 1 open seconds, 3500-14, was built for use in boat trains and carried the figure 2 on the doors.  Later they were upgraded to open firsts.

 

The abolition of third class happened at about the same time as maroon was introduced to replace blood and custard but as far as I am aware there was no causal connection.

 

Chris

Didn't these have only 48 seats, and centre doors, as opposed to the normal Open Thirds (later SO), which had 64 seats and end doors only?

[chrisf]

Didn't these have only 48 seats, and centre doors, as opposed to the normal Open Thirds (later SO), which had 64 seats and end doors only?

 

48 seats, yes.  The centre door was in the fourth seating bay from the lavatory end.

 

Chris

[Il Grifone]

The transition from third to second occured in 1956, but really was only a legal 'tidying up' as there was no change in the vehicles apart from the coding and I doubt there was any rush to change that.

 

Back in the 1840s there was a legal requirement set up for third class trains to be run and provided with roofs (the plebs weren't reallt supposed to travel!). The twentieth century saw a desire to simplify matters and only have two classes, but the requirement forthird class was still in place so it was second class to be abolished. Politicans and lawyers never being in a hurry, it took until the fifties to sort things out and bring us into line with the rest of Europe (hence the survival of second class for the Southern boat trains).

 

So, yes, crimson and cream strictly should be third class (I catalogue mine as thirds), but it depends on the period, as all that changed was the name. Fares and accomodation remained the same.