SE&CR Traffic on the Sevenoaks-Tonbridge Line

[Edwardian]

Possibly the "Folkestone Vestibuled Limited", 08:30 ex Folkestone, down working 16:28 ex Charing Cross, non-stop between Canon Street and Folkestone in each direction. Fastest train on the railway in 1906. Stock was the similar to the American-built coaches on the Hastings Car train, but designed by Mr. Wainwright in collaboration with Mr. Laycock (he of the ventilators and other coach fittings) and built by MRWC in 1897.

 

The two 'Car Trains', the Hastings, with the American Gilbert cars, and the Folkestone with the home-grown versions, are part of the attraction of Dunton green as a location.

 

If I could add a Folkestone and Dover Boat Train, that would put much of the top stuff on the joint managing committee's lines on the layout!

[Joseph_Pestell]

The GWR service also, at some stage, served the Sussex Coast, detaching a portion at Redhill, which then went (I think) Brighton (reverse), Eastbourne (reverse), Hastings, but I’m not totally sure, it may have subdivided at Redhill or Hayward’s Heath, with separate bits for Brighton and Eastbourne. And, if it did subdivide, were the portions tacked onto something else, or run as separate trains?

 

The Sunny South poses similar questions, but I do know that (at least for some of the year and some of its history), it went as a longish train direct from Redhill to Eastbourne, and I’ve seen colour movie film from the 1930s of a bit of it arriving at Brighton, an ex-LNWR 12-wheel diner, between two other coaches.

 

These cross-country, multi-destination trains are really interesting, but I think that understanding any one of them fully would require a lot of delving.

 

And, all this does make apparent that, because of the infrequency of ordinary trains, quite a high proportion of trains were ‘something special’ ....... train spotting must have been a very absorbing hobby 1900-1914.

 

From what I know of the Sunny South, it would merit a book of its own. The service seems to have changed almost each year.

[phil-b259]

The GWR service also, at some stage, served the Sussex Coast, detaching a portion at Redhill, which then went (I think) Brighton (reverse), Eastbourne (reverse), Hastings, but I’m not totally sure, it may have subdivided at Redhill or Hayward’s Heath, with separate bits for Brighton and Eastbourne. And, if it did subdivide, were the portions tacked onto something else, or run as separate trains?

 

 

Are you thinking of a Birkenhead - Hastings service which ran well into BR days and did indeed reverse at quite a few places and transfer onto the GWR at Reading?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Possibly the "Folkestone Vestibuled Limited", 08:30 ex Folkestone, down working 16:28 ex Charing Cross, non-stop between Canon Street and Folkestone in each direction. Fastest train on the railway in 1906. Stock was the similar to the American-built coaches on the Hastings Car train, but designed by Mr. Wainwright in collaboration with Mr. Laycock (he of the ventilators and other coach fittings) and built by MRWC in 1897.

I can see why you might want to model these.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DRAWING-ROOM-CAR-FOLKESTONE-EXPRESS-SE-CHATHAM-RAILWAY-POSTCARD-1910-/362179329310

[Nearholmer]

Phil

 

The predecessor of that. I think that it had a complex history, seeing different places over the years.

 

K

[Oldddudders]

Are you thinking of a Birkenhead - Hastings service which ran well into BR days and did indeed reverse at quite a few places and transfer onto the GWR at Reading?

 

It finished at the end of '64, as did all steam on Reading - Redhill. 

[Edwardian]

4 coupled passenger types with 7' drivers at 8'6" centres? 

 

Anyone make a kit or RTR model of such?

[Nearholmer]

Stirling?

 

I found a drawing of one in an old magazine yesterday. It’s a very good looking engine, if slightly ‘leggy’.

 

The trains must have been very light, because a 7ft driver would have given an engine that was very high-geared for gradients like those up from Tonbridge to Sevenoaks and Polhill tunnels. Even earlier generations of electrics, and the Hastings diesel units, were working hard.

[Oldddudders]

Stirling?

 

I found a drawing of one in an old magazine yesterday. It’s a very good looking engine, if slightly ‘leggy’.

 

The trains must have been very light, because a 7ft driver would have given an engine that was very high-geared for gradients like those up from Tonbridge to Sevenoaks and Polhill tunnels. Even earlier generations of electrics, and the Hastings diesel units, were working hard.

 

The Hastings diesels, even if both/all four power cars were working, used up two pathways getting to Orpington, compared with electrics.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am sure you are right that those premium trains would have been quite short although I have seen a picture (painting not photo) of the Hastings train with about eight coaches.

 

Coming back to Dunton Green itself, I was surprised to find a train terminating there and then starting back towards London. So far as I can find out, there was only ever one crossover. So the train must have been quite short and the loco run round via the loop on the branch platform - which would mess around with the branch service. It would surely have been better to run the train down to Tubs Hill.

[Guy Rixon]

Falcon Brass used to do a kit for an F1. No idea if it was at all accurate.

[bécasse]

 

 

Coming back to Dunton Green itself, I was surprised to find a train terminating there and then starting back towards London. So far as I can find out, there was only ever one crossover. So the train must have been quite short and the loco run round via the loop on the branch platform - which would mess around with the branch service. It would surely have been better to run the train down to Tubs Hill.

 

Until the Edwardian period, most SER wayside stations only had one crossover and running round, where and when required, was accomplished by rope shunting (possibly aided by gravity). When this practice was effectively outlawed by the BoT (it remained permitted at a few strictly specified locations), the SER installed second crossovers at a lot of stations but I don't know if this included Dunton Green (I only remember the London end crossover). One possibility is that the branch engine, or the engine of a pick-up goods assisted in shunting the stock.

[Guy Rixon]

Coming back to Dunton Green itself, I was surprised to find a train terminating there and then starting back towards London. So far as I can find out, there was only ever one crossover. So the train must have been quite short and the loco run round via the loop on the branch platform - which would mess around with the branch service. It would surely have been better to run the train down to Tubs Hill.

 

Was the branch service frequent enough to suffer disruption? Also, did the London train go straight back or did a couple of other main-line trains pass first? 

[Nearholmer]

Gravity run round, or the branch loco releasing the main line engine? Or even theloco going back to the previous station to cross over. All hints at a sparse service.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

The crossover was at the London end. So I think the loco would have propelled its train onto the Up and then pulled it into the branch platform. But it is also possible that the branch line engine could perform the shunt - if there was one. There is mention of "motor trains". Would they be push-pull or steam railcar?

 

I think that there was at least one up fast train between the arrival of the terminating down train and its departure back to Cannon St. So it may have had to wait some time on the Down before shunting or else in the branch platform or loop or exchange sidings. Quite a fun move on a layout but Dunton Green does not have any obvious scenic breaks. Chelsfield might be a better layout option.

[Nearholmer]

Others will know more, but I’m fairly sure that the SECR steam railcars had a bash on the Westerham branch. I think that details of these beasts are buried somewhere in ‘Umber is the new black’, but joining the SECR society, obtaining all their back-journals, and reading them all might be a quicker route.

 

Nice photo here https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5840106256

 

Isn’t there an Oakwood book about the branch?

Edited January 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

Others will know more, but I’m fairly sure that the SECR steam railcars had a bash on the Westerham branch. I think that details of these beasts are buried somewhere in ‘Umber is the new black’, but joining the SECR society, obtaining all their back-journals, and reading them all might be a quicker route.

 

Nice photo here https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5840106256

 

Isn’t there an Oakwood book about the branch?

 

Very nice photo. And 1907 date so in line with the note on the 1910 timetable.

 

So it would seem that the steam railmotors ran the weekday service, which was quite frequent, but loco-hauled trains ran on Sundays, probably to cater to a market of Londoners travelling out to ramble on the North Downs.

[The Lurker]

To illustrate that traffic flows were not a simple mix, there was an accident at Tonbridge in 1909 when the 9.5 down Continental Mail (Cannon St to Dover) ran into the 8.30 Fast Charing Cross to Dover via Redhill, which had overrun signals. The crash caused the rerouting of a royal train from the Tonbridge line to one of the alternatives.

[Edwardian]

Others will know more, but I’m fairly sure that the SECR steam railcars had a bash on the Westerham branch. I think that details of these beasts are buried somewhere in ‘Umber is the new black’, but joining the SECR society, obtaining all their back-journals, and reading them all might be a quicker route.

 

Nice photo here https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5840106256

 

Isn’t there an Oakwood book about the branch?

 

Yes.  I did nave a grip on this at one time, but there were conventional short coaches ,then, I think, a railmotor, then back to a conventional train, then a P on motor trains etc, so I think on a layout, you'd simply revolve various options for Westerham branch trains!

 

There is a book, it is out of print.  Haven't seen a sensibly priced copy yet.

[Davey]

4 coupled passenger types with 7' drivers at 8'6" centres? 

 

Anyone make a kit or RTR model of such?

 

SER Kits, owned by Dan Garrett is currently working on a 7mm kit for a South Eastern Railway F/F1 kit which I believe is not too far away from becoming available. As I understand it, he will on request, produce any of his kits in other scales.

 

Davey

[Edwardian]

SER Kits, owned by Dan Garrett is currently working on a 7mm kit for a South Eastern Railway F/F1 kit which I believe is not too far away from becoming available. As I understand it, he will on request, produce any of his kits in other scales.

 

Davey

 

That is very interesting.  Some time ago I cast envious eyes over the SER Kits site, envious, that is, of the 7mm modeller.

[Guy Rixon]

I also want an F class. I wonder how many pre-orders Mr Garrett needs to do the 4mm-scale version. If it were done as etches only I think we could get suitable castings and turnings from Branchlines.

[Edwardian]

I also want an F class. I wonder how many pre-orders Mr Garrett needs to do the 4mm-scale version. If it were done as etches only I think we could get suitable castings and turnings from Branchlines.

 

Well, wants outstrip budget, of course, but when I offload that wretched house ....

 

The F/F1 seems to have been something of a mainstay on this line, judging from the number appearing in photographs.  I would think at least 3; an F and F1 in 'the Full Wainwright' and an F1 in simplified livery, might be an interesting way of building up sufficient motive power, yet including some variety.

 

A couple of Ds and an E for the principal expresses and you've got enough for some representative passenger services on the line.  SEF do kits of both, of course, and also produce Wainwright lining transfers.  

 

I was interested to read that SER Kits 7mm loco kits come with resin boilers, so no rolling required.  I wonder if the same would be true of any 4mm versions.

 

I was also interested to see the O had been reproduced in 3mm scale.  An O would be a glorious thing. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I took another look at the old OS maps of Chelsfield this morning. Very suitable for a model.

[Guy Rixon]

The O class is already available in 4mm scale, from Branchlines. I have one in the queue. It's an old-school whitemetal kit with an etched chassis and some of its fittings, like the safety valve and steam-pump for the reverser, are what could be got for an etches-only F. There's also resin parts for an O1 from Golden Arrow.

 

Concerning the F, if a new master had to be made for the boiler, I suspect that it might sink a small-batch project. It would be easy enough to get a boiler, smokebox and firebox printed, if the budget is not too tight. If the etches for the rest can be procured I would gladly provide the prints.