Aberdaron, or, Little Aching

[uax6]

I can't imagine that the GEM point levers will fall apart, they are fairly robust, and are still available, so if one does die, you can change it out. They appear to be used for the signals as well as the points, which seems quite sensible. 

It looks like the wiring goes to the simple on-off lever frame, and having had one of these little frames in the past, I seem to remember that they are fairly robust, but that occasionally the contacts bend, so that the lever doesn't press the moving contact down far enough. The fixed contact is visible if you turn the frame over, and you can usual cure the issue by a little bit of packing for that bottom contact against the base board. 

 

I agree with the don't strip it of wires approach (especially as I know you don't like soldering), as I'm guessing that it might well surprise you and burst into life. The thing to look at is how the points are wired. I fear you are going to have to provide lots of photos for us to help you!

 

I quite like the back scene, its of its time, and quite atmospheric, if only it wasn't so dirty! 

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

Looks like lots of photographs tomorrow then!

 

Might be tricky finding that GEM kit these days. A few listings (e.g. Wizard) but nothing showing in stock.

 

I too like the backscenes. Nice and old school. They have a quality lacking in modern photographic backsenes. I believe they are Bilteezi, but unlike the building sheets, I do not think they are still reproduced.  Indeed, I can only find an image of countryside sections, not the seaside village.

 

[uax6]

Scalelink have point levers as well, and show GEM ones as in stock: 

https://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Universal-Hand-operated-Point-Levers---PRE--OWNED-p1.html

(there is also a second page with other types on it too)

 

Andy G

 

Edit: Could you get the backscenes scanned? That way they could be cleaned up digitally...

 

Edit again: I don't think they are actually GEM point levers, as the moving bit seems to be at right angle to the lever, not in line with it like the GEM ones....

Edited January 29, 2023 by uax6

[Hroth]

Or you could carefully remove the backscenes, boards and all and do a "Repair Shop" style restoration, gluing the tears down to thin paper and try gently cleaning them with cottonwool buds moistened with water. Of course, if it works that might take some time, but if you feel that period charm is important, and there's nothing comparable available commercially...

 

But the first thing is to remove and store them carefully, and get to grips with the electrics and so on...

 

(Egg sucking lecture OFF)

 

[Edwardian]

Schematic:

 

The two lines that curve away bottom left: The inner one is the headshunt and the outer the single running line. 

 

Overall view:

 

 

Underneath:

 

 

The cross-over in the station:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point motor for right/rear cross-over turnout (mounted on baseboard benath embankment):

 

 

Point motor for left/front cross-over turnout:

 

 

Baseboard join:

 

 

 

 

 

Station throat:

 

 

 

 

Goods Yard (top) and cross-over turnouts:

 

 

Goods Yard turnout to second siding:

 

 

 

Cross-over and turnout to front siding (left to right):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Point controls:

 

 

 

Signal controls (seized up):

 

 

 

[Hroth]

Looking at the underside of the baseboards, some of the electrics look decidedly 50s or early 60s, in particular the plug and socket used to electrically connect the two boards are based on an octal valve holder.  There also appears to be a probe wrapped up with the connecting cable which looks like a point switching wand and would be associated with the screwheads numbered 1 - 5/6 - 7 to operate the points.  The switches 1 - 5 look like section isolators.  The white sockets at the front are for power in from a controller. One might be track, the other aux for the point motors.

 

I assume the grey levers dotted about operate the signals.

 

Going back to the white sockets, it is possible that the one by the switches is the track power and the one under the point studs is for the point motors!

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Hroth
Extra thort...

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Looking at the underside of the baseboards, some of the electrics look decidedly 50s or early 60s, in particular the plug and socket used to electrically connect the two boards are based on an octal valve holder.  There also appears to be a probe wrapped up with the connecting cable which looks like a point switching wand and would be associated with the screwheads numbered 1 - 5 to operate the points.  The switches 1 - 5 look like section isolators.  The white sockets at the front are for power in from a controller. One might be track, the other aux for the point motors.

 

I assume the grey levers dotted about operate the signals.

 

 

I think you are correct in all respects.

[Hroth]

Have you tried moving any of the point motors manually?  For example, looking at the one under the embankment for the station crossover, it looks a bit corroded. Is it possible to move the solenoid from side to side using a small screwdriver or is it stiff or frozen in place?

 

[Skinnylinny]

I think I may have some spares of those trackside point levers, if you're concerned about getting hold of them - they arrived in a box of assorted bits and pieces. Happy to donate!

[nick_bastable]

looking at the previous repairs you may have to bite the bullet and learn to solder 😁

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, nick_bastable said:

looking at the previous repairs you may have to bite the bullet and learn to solder 😁

 

Oh I can solder well enough for this sort of thing

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

Have you tried moving any of the point motors manually?  For example, looking at the one under the embankment for the station crossover, it looks a bit corroded. Is it possible to move the solenoid from side to side using a small screwdriver or is it stiff or frozen in place?

 

 

Wouldn't know where to start.

[Compound2632]

Does anything happen when power is applied?

[Schooner]

Corruption, normally.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Does anything happen when power is applied?

 

Not sure how to do that!  

[Hroth]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

Have you tried moving any of the point motors manually?  For example, looking at the one under the embankment for the station crossover, it looks a bit corroded. Is it possible to move the solenoid from side to side using a small screwdriver or is it stiff or frozen in place?

 

 

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Wouldn't know where to start.

 

I was looking at this picture

 

 

See the rusty looking rod with the sticky up bit between the two coils?  Thats the active bit of the point motor, current through the left hand coil should pull the solenoid rod towards it and out of the inactive coil. If you push it over (without power applied) to the left, using a small screwdriver to push against the sticky up bit where it emerges from the solenoid rod, then you'll be able to gauge how stiff the mechanism is.

 

Its safer than trying to apply power to it, in case its jammed solid and releases some magic smoke.  Gently does it, and keep an eye on the point blades too.  At least with this point motor, you can see whats happening topside as you try to move it.

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Does anything happen when power is applied?

 

As for putting power into it, I'd not connect a controller initiallly.  Clean up the tops of the rails and using a small loco, apply a 9v battery (pp3 sized) across the rails and see if the loco moves, and where it comes to a halt. It'll probably have gone over an isolation gap. (fingers crossed). Push the loco past the location, and reapply the battery.

 

You should be able to map out the sections.

 

Of course, with a multimeter, you could apply power from the battery through the socket below the isolation switches and test the track voltages, and find out which sections are powered through the isolation switches. 

 

Whichever method you use, you can then mark 'em out on your map.

 

 

It might also be useful to mark where wires are soldered to the rails, and where the isolation gaps are.  I think I saw one between the points in the station crossover.  They're just airgaps.

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Thusly:

 

 

Its a bit frustrating looking at this remotely, because my gut instinct is that the wiring is probably fine as it stands, and that the point motors can probably be coaxed into life.

 

What will need work is contact surfaces, not just the running rail heads but auxiliary switches on point motors (if they have any), switch-tip to stock-rail contacts, and any other contacts, because will all be oxidised/corroded. You may also have the odd dry-joint in soldered connections, although they usually last incredibly well.

[uax6]

And to stress DO NOT use normal WD40 for the clean up job! That will destroy the insulation on the coils and sleepers. Keep WD40 for squirting into the cylinders of a neighbours motor bike when they aren't looking....

A fibreglass pencil is a good tool for cleaning up contacts, even coarse printer paper does a good job at cleaning them too!

 

For the wire in tube signal controls, I would get some thin oil and put a few drips (off the end of a bit of .5mm wire) down each tube by the signal post. This will then run down the tube and round to the lever. The levers themselves will probably free up with a couple of drips of oil on the pivots, and the use of the fibreglass pencil on the sliding bar to remove any surface rust.

 

Again, clean the screw tops for the point controls with the fibreglass pencil, and you can then test the motors (after manually making sure that they are free) using a 9v battery via the studs. 

 

Its nice to see proper lacing of the wiring under the boards as well!

 

Of course if the H&M motors don't work, you can remove them and operate the points with wire in tube too.

 

Take it slowly and it will start to make sense, but remember to take notes!

 

Andy G

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by uax6

[Hroth]

8 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Its nice to see proper lacing of the wiring under the boards as well!

 

Yes, that and the octal valve base shows some seriously old-fashioned construction methods!

[Compound2632]

Heck, well, at least the underside of the layout is creating considerable public interest.

[RodneyS]

10 hours ago, uax6 said:

And to stress DO NOT use normal WD40 for the clean up job!

I remember, many years ago, we had some H & M point motors on a Club layout.

A few were getting a bit 'sticky' so someone (not me !) oiled the sliding armatures.

I don't know what he used, possibly '3 in 1', as that was very popular at the time.

Whatever it was, the tubes in which the armature slid expanded and locked the motor solid.

I assume they were some sort of plastic.

Exit some H & M point motors.

 

Perhaps some graphite powder might have worked better ?

 

After that some clever soul came up with a capacitor discharge unit.  

That gave the point motors one heck of a kick.  If the motor didn't move, the layout did !

 

I recall the built in switch didn't always work well and required frequent adjustment and cleaning.  

Oh, happy days.  As a friend of mine always says "why do we do it ?"

The funny thing is that it doesn't seem to stop us trying.

Rodney

[Hroth]

Apart from sorting out how power is distributed to the tracks, the key to getting the layout operational is understanding how the point motors are wired. I've never seen H&M motors before, but a bit of googling reveals the following details...

 

Here's one of your motors.

 

 

The numbered connections with reference to this motor are:

 

1.  Left hand solonoid coil

2. Right hand solenoid coil

These connect to the point studs on the baseboard

6.  Left hand solonoid coil

7. Right hand solenoid coil

These are wired as a common return to the point motor power supply.

 

The next three are the switching connected to the point live frogs

3. The common connection to the frog itself

4. Positive track supply *

5. Negative track supply **

* Red in conventional diagrams

** Black in conventional diagrams

 

Sorting out which are which is where a multimeter comes in handy...

 

As mentioned above, the point motor switch contacts may be corroded, there are lots of spider bits lying about too. A good vacuuming would clear a lot of the detritus, andwouldn't harm things.  Its all very robust down below!

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Hroth
JUst a bit more.

[CKPR]

Not GEM but very similar and made of brass - is it a good match for the existing lever frame ? It's set up for passing contact point control so might be a drop in for the old one.

 

[Edwardian]

They just keep coming ....

 

Following on from the Kernow GWR steam railmotor, which, at least in its 1906 lined chocolate and cream, seems to promise pre-Groupers a high degree of accuracy, comes Dapol's announcement of a 1907 Diagram N autocoach.

 

I can see my little branch terminus layout enjoying a choice of a steam railmotor, a 517 with Ratio 4-wheers and, now, a 517 with autocoach. Throw in a couple of saddle tanks to work goods trains and that's more than a modest 1900s GW branchline's worth of stock at my disposal.

 

 

The two pre-Grouping options appear to be:

(4P-004-001) Autocoach GWR 37 lined crimson lake

(4P-004-002) Autocoach GWR 40 lined chocolate & cream - assuming this is pre-1908 lined livery

 

What I've seen of the Kernow crimson is disappointing, so I will be keen to see how Dapol get along. 

 

Just as the GWR of the period built both 70' and 57' coaches for its mainline servicess, it built both 70' and a shorter version for its autocoaches. The 70' versions would be magnificent, but I'll happily make do with a shorter one. Generally I think it's great to have a pre-Grouping design finally available, as this will serve the Grouping era modeller equally well, as only late diagram steel body trailers have been available RTR to this point.  

 

Turning to Lewis, these shorter purpose-built trailers were built to four diagrams - C, J, J1 and N - between 1905 and 1907.  They were to a length of 59'6".  

 

All will have originally entered service in lined chocolate and cream. 

 

Dapol have announced a Diagram N, which were delivered in January and February 1907. There were 6 of them, Nos. 36-41.

 

No.37 was photographed c.1907 at Abbotsbury, while around the same time, another, possibly No.40, was to be seen at St Agnes. 

 

In style terms they represent a continuation of Dapol's foray into the 'Toplight' era, though , as older vehicles than their short suburban bogie stock, this is of course a wooden panelled design. We know such liveries can be successfully applied on panelled coaches, Hattons has done a superb job with its 1890s chocolate and cream livery on its generics, while Kernow is producing lined steam railmotors. My experience of Dapol is that the factories it has used are not at the top of the complex livery game. I also think their GW specialist designer is not the most disciplined where accuracy is concerned (and pretty resisitent to corrective evidence!). On an own project, as opposed to a commission, Dapol is more likely to compromise on tooling costs. So, we'll see. 

 

But finers crossed. Could be a great model feeling a yawning niche.