What purpose does this GWR structure serve?

[Compound2632]

Any attempts at deciphering the number of that 1880s wooden mink?

[Mikkel]

Excellent! Many thanks to all for the input on this, including interesting maps and bonus info - and special thanks to The Stationmaster for finding out exactly what it was used for (for those who missed it, see the link in his post below, which actually discusses the platform). 

 

Here you go folks, read on about the coal stage -

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/shed/shed.html

 

 

And yes, Otto Monsted was Danish - the factory at Southall is my planned retirement layout project! (well one of them). Meanwhile, here's a Danish Mica, Otto Monsted style:

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Mikkel

[The Stationmaster]

I reckon it's not a coaling stage in the usual sense but a way for the fireman to gain access to the coal wagons and coal would be loaded directly from the open wagon door into the RailMotor.

That would explain why it's built on top of the buffer stop and appears to be clean (while the coal in the wagons is shiny).

Note also that the wagons have side doors, not end doors (I think) with one door open on the furthest wagon where coal has most recently been unloaded where it stands.

It would be a huge waste of effort to hoist coal over the end of the wagon onto the stage and from there into the RailMotor.

 

That is pure speculation just from trying to be logical about what we can see in the photo.

 

The usual way of coaling direct from wagons was over the end of the wagon to over the rear of the bunker (as it mainly, if not entirely, happened with tank engines).  Opening the wagon door would simply result in a pile of coal on the ground which is an awful long way down from the top of a bunker or even from the cab floor on a railmotor.

 

I'm wondering if the wagon with the open door was being used to top-up the wagon on the blocks and enough coal had been emptied out of it to allow the door to be opened to make it easier for someone to climb into the wagon?  Reality is of course unless we find someone who coaled railmotors at Southall we'll never know exactly how it was done.

[Mikkel]

It is quite useful to have identified an example of a dedicated railmotor coaling facility. I had not come across such a thing before.

 

Indeed. And a nice opportunity for a micro layout if the Kernow railmotor ever appears.

 

Any attempts at deciphering the number of that 1880s wooden mink?

 

Not yet, but I think it will be difficult. 

[7007GreatWestern]

Some more findings on the fuelling of GWR Railmotors which don't answer the OP's question conclusively but are hopefully interesting all the same!

 

I found an interview with a gentleman called Harold Gubbins, dated 1967, on the GWS Website:-

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/history/pictures/sub_gubbins.html

 

It's a priceless bit of social and railway history which someone had the foresight to preserve for posterity. Mr Gubbins was a Fireman on the 'Chalford Railmotor' and recalls working on them when they were introduced in 1903.

 

Coal for the Railmotors was initially supplied in 1cwt (50kg bags). However after a month or so this arrangement was abandoned and the 'motors were coaled directly from a wagon dispatched to Chalford shed. Chalford, like Southall, was provided with a galvanised shed and coaling/watering facilities though he doesn't say what the "coaling facility" was.

 

Mr Gubbins estimates that he used approx 30 cwt of coal per day. This equates to about 1.5 Imperial tons I believe. That sounds like a lot to our modern ears but was not much by the standards of the day. In his book "A loco Fireman Looks Back" (Bradford Barton), former Laira and Swindon Fireman Ray Gwillam recounts his experiences of working on the coaling tower at Laira shortly after joining the Railway in the 1950s:-

 

"A shift's work was about 12 tons, after which the tonnages tipped qualified for a bonus. The men had to go like the clappers to qualify - and for the first week I didn't. It turned out that in actual fact, I was termed a 'passenger' - and losing the men money, which was worse than running off with their wives!"

 

In summary, it would be well within the physical capabilities of a shed labourer to coal up a Railmotor with 1.5 tons of coal from the Southall platform, and manual loading from 1 cwt sacks or from an adjacent wagon would not be considered extraordinary by the standards of the time.

[81C]

Any attempts at deciphering the number of that 1880s wooden mink?

years ago some one made a plastic kit might be Kirk or Ashby I mark mine as a sand van and left it at the back of the shed yard it was

OK till a Kays 2-8-0 destroyed it with some zelous shunting. 

[Compound2632]

years ago some one made a plastic kit might be Kirk or Ashby I mark mine as a sand van and left it at the back of the shed yard it was

OK till a Kays 2-8-0 destroyed it with some zelous shunting. 

 

There certainly was a Kirk kit - here's one I rebuilt recently (6th photo down). 

That sounds like quite a prototypical way to write off an old wagon! The mass ratio will have been about right.

[martin_wynne]

Whatever that is in the wagon, it doesn't look like coal to me. Is it the station rubbish wagon?

 

Martin.

[jim.snowdon]

Whatever that is in the wagon, it doesn't look like coal to me. Is it the station rubbish wagon?

 

Martin.

Bear in mind that loco coal was bought from the collieries un-graded, so would not have been the relatively even size seen in most wagons.

 

Certain other features of the "platform" puzzle me - the column for the gas lamp looks oddly thin, as do the supports for the platform. If it is supposed that what is visible under the front of the platform are the rails of the buffer stop underneath, they are not in line with where the rails would be. It is as if a certain amount ofthe detail has been drawn onto the picture after it was taken, but before it was printed.

 

The uniformity of the line of goods vans is in itself remarkable - the surprise is that they are all uniformly clean, with not an iron mink or an early iron-framed wood body van in sight. Unless, they were dedicated to a particular traffic, eg margarine.

 

Jim

[Harlequin]

I'm not arguing with anyone, least of all Mike (The StationMaster), just trying to understand why this detail looks a little unusual.

 

It's clear it has something to do with coaling railmotors and the contributions to the discussion above have added some useful clues to the puzzle, so how about this:

 

It could be a coaling stage designed to stockpile bagged coal, not loose coal. That would explain why it's so clean (to my eyes anyway) and why it doesn't have taller sides. The lip at the back would be enough to stop sacks sliding off.

 

When Mr Gubbins said that railmotors were "coaled directly from a wagon" he may have meant that the coal was no longer supplied bagged from Gloucester, but was bagged on site.

 

So, coal would be bagged from the open wagon door, slung over a shoulder, carried down the track and flipped onto the stage, from where it could easily be moved into the railmotor when it was brought alongside.

 

I simply put this forward as a possibility - quite happy to be proved wrong, or right, or whatever.

 

Edit: P.S. I think you can see a tool lying on top of the load at the far end of the nearest wagon. Maybe a pick-axe or sledgehammer for breaking the coal down to baggable size???

Edited February 1, 2018 by Harlequin

[Fat Controller]

Probably showing my age, but I remember a chain of grocers called 'Maypole', which are presumably the same company as the margarine.

[Coppercap]

Probably showing my age, but I remember a chain of grocers called 'Maypole', which are presumably the same company as the margarine.

 

So I believe. (My dad's mum and her sisters, who all grew up in Southall, often used to reminisce about "The Maypole").

You can read about the "The Maypole and Southall Green" here:

http://www.southall-history.co.uk/the-maypole-and-southall-green/

[Velopeur]

A couple of suggestions

 

1. The deck of the structure looks clean and white because it has been raining. Everything is wet - or at least damp, so the platform is reflecting daylight.

 

2. The "structure" we all think we see holding the platform up looks more to me like tape tied or stuck to the structure. I suspect the actual structure is much darker and doesn't show up in the photo. Why the tape? Maybe so the structure shows up better in the dark?

[7007GreatWestern]

There is some nice footage of the preserved Railmotor No. 93 on the West Somerset Railway here:-

 

 

The first 20 seconds are particularly helpful as they shows the proximity of the coal bunker to the external doors - an important consideration given that it was coaled manually.

[kevinlms]

I see the map describes the 'dairy' as what it was actually was - a margarine factory - so I somehow doubt that it received any churns of milk at any time (be they lobbed over the wall or not  ).

 

 

Yes, but can you tell the difference?

[Trog]

Seems a little odd to me that you would unload coal from a wagon, carry the coal down the line put it on a platform then load it into the railmotor, or shovel coal down a chain of wagons.  When you could simply put the railmotor along side the wagon and shovel the coal straight from one to the other or pass it straight across in bags or boxes. Starting by moving the coal over the wagon side then once you have cleared down to floor level opening the door and shoveling passing it out on the level.

 

The trodden path from the foot crossing also seems to go away from the platform, with little sign of people walking from the crossing to the platform. Also if the staff were regularly expected to climb onto the platform why are there no stairs, or even an old box to make it easier to climb up?

 

Could the platform not just be an ordinary buffer stop ( it looks like you can see the top of the angled rails at the beam end) reinforced with earth or rubble, to protect a structure just out of frame that just happens to be somewhere interesting? Although if so why would you deck the top.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Trog

[Mikkel]

"The original GWR 1905 plan shows the track running through the building for about 100’, terminating in a stop block. This (according to reports) incorporated a wooden coal stage, but a photograph from 1912 shows no evidence of this structure. There is some evidence however that the coal stage was constructed on the stop block of a siding that terminated adjacent to the external pit."

 

Quote from the GWS, as per the link provided by the Station Master in post #17. Given the 1912 photo, we now also know that the platform was constructed after that date.

 

I'll inform the GWS, in case they're interested to know that this has now been confirmed. Once again thanks to all.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Mikkel

[Coppercap]

Quote from the GWS, as per the link provided by the Station Master in post #17. Given the 1912 photo, we now also know that the platform was constructed after that date.

 

I'll inform the GWS, in case they're interested to know that this has now been confirmed. Once again thanks to all.

The (heavily retouched) 1912 photo is looking east, the photo the OP posted is looking west (with the western end of the railmotor shed literally just out of shot on the left). So the platform would be well out of shot to the right in the 1912 image.

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

The coaling Of No. 93 is done via the use of either (plastic!) bagged coal when we are out and about or large wicker baskets on site. I will send a link to this thread to the guy who masterminded the return to life of Nos. 92 & 93 and get his help as he has been down the rabbit hole on this lot so to speak!

 

Interestingly, the broad gauge locos use a similar platform to refuel at DRC...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited February 1, 2018 by Castle

[Miss Prism]

Southall and Chalford had dedicated SRM sheds, but I suspect the novelty of such facilities soon wore off for the GWR, and most SRMs were coaled (probably with small tubs, big ones wouldn't get through the door) amidst normal running sheds.

[Mikkel]

The (heavily retouched) 1912 photo is looking east, the photo the OP posted is looking west (with the western end of the railmotor shed literally just out of shot on the left). So the platform would be well out of shot to the right in the 1912 image.

 

In the retouched photo on the GWS page, there is a wall next to the siding with the stops. I think that might be the wall and stops also visible in the OP.

 

Edit: Ah, I see what you mean.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Mikkel

[Coppercap]

In the retouched photo on the GWS page, there is a wall next to the siding with the stops. I think that might be the wall and stops also visible in the OP.

Did you not understand my post #43?

Yes it is the same wall, as the shed was built alongside it (it was a long wall...), but it shows the other end of the shed to where the platform was. The 1912 image does not show the western end of the shed (it is cropped out of shot), and the OP's image shows the platform which was outside the western end. The stop in the 1912 image is not that which the platform was built on top of!

[Castle]

HI All,

 

In a massive dose of efficiency, Mr Drew of railmotor fame has got back to me already!

 

“It's the coaling platform for the SRM that use to live in the shed that is just out of shot in the print.

If you go to the GWS web site / Links / Railmotor Project / Sheds and enlarge the plan of the Southall Shed you will see the end of the siding and stop block on the far left of the drawing.

Coal was unloaded onto the platform from wagons stabled on the shed road, and then later transferred to the SRM in the wicker baskets that were with the SRM (and maybe still are) when it first arrived at DRC

DRC do this operation from the coaling platform adjacent to the Branch access point - this serves both BG & NG lines.”

 

So there we are. II hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[jim.snowdon]

That prompts two questions - first, then what is the structure that is just visible in the bottom left corner of the picture, which would have been just outside the railmotor shed, and second, if the coal was transferred from wagons standing on the shed road into backets on the platform, then why are the two coal wagons on a different siding, trapped by other rolling stock? There ought also to be a stock of the wicker baskets sitting around somewhere, either filled awaiting transfer into the bunker of the SRM, or empty and awaiting filling.

 

Jim

[southern42]

Hi All,

 

The coaling Of No. 93 is done via the use of either (plastic!) bagged coal when we are out and about or large wicker baskets on site. I will send a link to this thread to the guy who masterminded the return to life of Nos. 92 & 93 and get his help as he has been down the rabbit hole on this lot so to speak!

 

Interestingly, the broad gauge locos use a similar platform to refuel at DRC...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

 

HI All,

 

In a massive dose of efficiency, Mr Drew of railmotor fame has got back to me already!

 

“It's the coaling platform for the SRM that use to live in the shed that is just out of shot in the print.

If you go to the GWS web site / Links / Railmotor Project / Sheds and enlarge the plan of the Southall Shed you will see the end of the siding and stop block on the far left of the drawing.

Coal was unloaded onto the platform from wagons stabled on the shed road, and then later transferred to the SRM in the wicker baskets that were with the SRM (and maybe still are) when it first arrived at DRC

DRC do this operation from the coaling platform adjacent to the Branch access point - this serves both BG & NG lines.”

 

So there we are. II hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

Coming up...One wicker basket going onboard No. 93, Llangollen, 19 April 2013 at 13:37.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by southern42