Point derailing.

[drew13]

Im using Hornby standard left hand points. But ive getting nothing but de railment issues at the frog. Does anyone know of a video on how i sand and modify the point to work correctly

[Gordon A]

Some pictures of the points in situ and adjacent track may be helpful.

 

Gordon A

[Guy Rixon]

If it's only some vehicles derailing, then check the back-to-back measurements of those wheelsets. Having the a wheelset wide to gauge can cause it to hit the crossing nose and bounce off. Wheels tight to gauge so they won't span the check-rail and wing-rail will climb over one of those rails and fall off. 

 

If it's all vehicles then it's probably the turnouts themselves. In that case, still check back-to-back in case all your stock is gauged incompatibly with the Hornby track. Otherwise, check that the check rails are intact and not sunk below the running rails; that the nose of the crossing has not somehow stuck up above the other rails; that your flangeways are not blocked up with junk, especially ballast.

 

With proprietary, pre-assembled turnouts I'd be surprised if you needed to modify them by sanding or filing to get them to work. Unless they got broken during tracklaying, in which case new turnouts might be the thing.

[DCB]

Im using Hornby standard left hand points. But ive getting nothing but de railment issues at the frog. Does anyone know of a video on how i sand and modify the point to work correctly

Yes you get derailing problems with Hornby points. They are 17.5" nominal radius which is somewhere around 16" radius through the point blade area and very marginal for present day RTR.   The Peco Set track is similar but better engineered.   I have live frogged some Hornby points with a fabricated point frog from N/S rail spliced in which helps as does shimming the check rails with thin N/S or brass sheet but for a proper non Thomas the Tank layout you would be far better off going to Peco Streamline

[10000]

What is derailing could be helpful?

 

Steam locos with front bogie or pony truck can be a common cause due to the back to back on those wheels which can easily be affected by pressing on the wheels when placing them on the track.

Edited January 31, 2018 by 10000

[Il Grifone]

I can only agree with checking the back to back (should be 14.5mm allowing a tolerance of 0.1mm).

 

I've just acquired a Tri-ang brick wagon which a previous owner had started replacing the bogies (Ratio) and wheels. It came with four Hornby wheelsets. (I am sure they had not been tampered with as the wheels were a very tight fit on the axle.) On testing the reassembled wagon, it derailed on points (Peco Streamline curved) in one direction only. On checking the back to back (which I should have done first!), the offending wheelsetset was found to be set at 15mm. Once corrected all was well.

[Torper]

I'm assuming that you have more than one set of these points on your layout.  If none of the others cause any problems of this nature, then it would suggest that it is this particular set of points that is causing the problem.  I also wonder if the problem has only just started - have the points been behaving up until now or have they caused problems ever since they were installed?

 

DT

[The Johnster]

Also check that the blades close properly against the stock rails.  Are your derailments occurring when you run straight through the turnout or when you run through the curved route, or both?  Check that the flangeways are clear and that ballast or other debris is not fouling the movement of the blades.

 

I agree with the 'engineering quality' point; I use some Peco Setrack points in my fiddle yard and Streamline on the visible part of the layout, but have one Hornby 2nd/3rd radius curved turnout which feels a bit flimsy in comparison.  It worksfine and has given no issues, but is just somehow not reassuring.  

 

Tracklaying must be meticulous around points and it is important that they are level and that the joints with the adjoining track sections are smooth and level as well.  This needs particular attention around baseboard joins, which are prone to being knocked vertically or horizontally, or warping.

[drew13]

Ok do the loco is the Hornby alstrom pendolino. I have a dcc concepts back to back gauge and the wheels are all set correctly to that. Factory were all to narrow. I bought a peco sl-92 and the problem is gone.

[orford]

Running a Pendolino through points with a radius of 17.5" sounds like just asking for trouble to me.

 

I no longer work in 'OO', having moved up to O Gauge - but when I did work in OO I would not have dreamt of having any point or curve of less than 30" radius if I could possibly avoid it. Even that is tight compared with the prototype. If you have the room, then I would personally get rid of the tight Hornby turnouts and go with something rather more generous. If you don't have the room, then maybe you should be looking at modelling an industrial scene or branch line rather than trying to run main line trains of the Pendolino type. 

 

I don't mean this to sound harsh or unhelpful but you really do ideally need to match your prototype to the space which you have available. Models are after all to a certain degree (although there is FAR more latitude in a model) subject to pretty much the same rules as the full sized thing......i.e., You would not get a full sized 'Eurostar' train around the average colliery railway system.

[Sturminster_Newton]

Points set to deal with multiple wheel standards are going to an issue as Tri-ang road roller wheels and OO finescale have to be catered for and mighty is the wailing when it stock de-rails.

 

So the best you get from propitiatory point work is a mostly works with most wheelsets.

 

When laying point-work it needs to be level in all planes preferably on a rigid not resilient surface.

 

I usually work in garden scales and the same problem of mixed standards occurs.

 

Peco have finer flange-ways and a generous radius to make the transition smoother.

 

However the design of my layout meant that I ended up with LGB R3 as my ruling radius.

 

As many will know the on R3 point-work frog leads the guide rail by a millimetre of two which means much non-LGB stock will 'ride' the frog and you end up with the snakes of locked couplers and a deal of invective is expended.

 

In an ideal world one would not use R2 Hornby or R3 LGB pointwork anywhere.

 

But the space available in the garden or at home places restrictions on the final layout.

 

In some instances R2 and LGB R3 is the only point work that a muddler can use.

 

If you are muddling a wharf or industrial line it is pretty much standard to have impossibly tight radius.

 

Note

 

C&H Gotham Curve at 2.5 chains 166'6" radius scale to around 666mm so even Peco Stream line pointwork falls under this 1:1scale flange screech.

 

Running long loco's and long wheelbase models will still end in a degree of frustration use large radius where you can and keep the long stuff to the main line.

 

Limit running to BR standard 10ton wagons and vans whilst not impressive it is easier to live with some.