School Project - The Victorian Railway

[sem34090]

This is all really rather tempting!

 

After I have a few more things out of the way...

[Nearholmer]

OK now I'm confused.

 

The L&S loco 'Atlas' came a year earlier in 1834.

 

And, a useful numeric comparison of the two http://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=Great_Britain&wheel=0-6-0&railroad=ls

Edited March 21, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

Being the L&S, "Vulcan" is possibly the exemplar of Ur-Midland practice.  Ditch the wooden boiler cover, add a cab, more recent boiler fittings and paint it black.

 

Then its a Midland Johnson 2F 0-6-0!

 

 

 

 

(Image borrowed from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Railway_Johnson_0-6-0 )

 

 

"Its a Johnson!  I don't know when I last laid my hands on a Johnson!"  Nanny Ogg, Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett

Edited March 21, 2018 by Hroth

[Edwardian]

In danger of causing gross diversion from topic, but .......

 

This early development is fascinating, because the progress from 'Rocket' to truly practical engines involved the move to inside cylinders, and getting them neatly integrated under the smoke box, and the provision of decent frames, rather than using the boiler-shell as a structural member.

 

Between them, they got through all this very swiftly, to arrive at the archetypal design.

 

And, talking of archetypes, does anyone here present know when and where the inside-cylinder 0-6-0 goods engine emerged? The S&D seems the place where it should have happened.

 

Thanks to the wonders of the internet, I think I've answered my own question. 1835 on the Leicester and Swannington ...... and it looks so modern.

 

And a proper drawing here http://enuii.com/vulcan_foundry/photographs/Drawings/no%2010%20leicester%20&%20swannington%20%27Vulcan%27%201835.jpg

 

Which puts Derwent nicely into perspective.

 

The first of the Hackworth 0-6-0 twin tender designs is Royal George, of 1827.  At 1845, Derwent represents the ultimate development of the type (note these later classes have adopted the slanting cylinder and motion of Stephenson's Rocket, so that more powerful and larger versions of the type can be used to haul heavier trains with less hammering of the track).

 

Meanwhile, elsewhere, the inside cylindered 0-6-0 is pioneered ten years earlier.

 

On the S&D, however, the single-tender long-boiler type is represented by the outside-cylinder Conside, bought in 1845, the year of Derwent's manufacture.  Bouch followed this in 1847, with outside cylinder long-boilers of his own (Commerce Class) with extravagant cross-heads.

 

Only in 1848 do we have the first S&D insider cylinder, and also inside framed, 0-6-0 goods tender engine. They still have plug wheels(!), but otherwise are strikingly modern compared with Derwent of just 3 years earlier.  

 

Derwent may have represented the end of the line, but hers was a hardy breed and some were long-lived relative to the period, so she should not be so easily written off in favour of more modern designs.  Derwent lasted until 1868 in revenue earning service on the S&D, and then had a brief second career as a colliery engine for the Peases, I think this must have been at least until the fifty-year anniversary celebrations in 1875. 

 

The outside cylinder Conside of 1845 was withdrawn in 1858. Also outside-cylindered, Commerce of 1847 went in 1876 and, the first inside cylinder 0-6-0s, Clevedon of 1848 was withdrawn in 1870, Birkbeck of 1849 in 1875 and Larchfield of 1849 in 1873.

 

So, relatively, Derwent had a respectable innings. If we add her time with the Peases, she worked for as long, or longer, than any of the modern designs that were the immediate replacements for her type.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

That's why I'm so interested in these very early 0-6-0 locos. The design of British goods engine was iterated, but not really fundamentally changed, for maybe eighty years. Even the leading dimensions remained very much the same.

 

The LNWR DX and Stroudley's D were supposedly big influencers, but even they weren't radical departures.

 

It is astonishing how quickly things converged on this archetype.

[uax6]

Whats more interesting is how she survived and didn't get scrapped, as these sorts of things weren't really though about then...

 

Do we know?

Andy G
 

[Edwardian]

Whats more interesting is how she survived and didn't get scrapped, as these sorts of things weren't really though about then...

 

Do we know?

Andy G

 

 

Well Derwent was sold out of service to the Peases and given or lent back for the S&D 50th anniversary Celebrations (1875).  IIRC, after that she, and No.1 Locomotion, were put on plinths to display them at Darlington Bank Top Station.

 

Derwent came out for the 1925 Centenary cavalcade, and was in steam for that.  The B&W pictures posted here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132525-regency-rails-georgian-williamine-early-victorian-railways/&do=findComment&comment=3096065 date from 1925.

 

Then she went back on display at Bank Top, save for a wartime sojourn somewhere safer, until she went into the museum, which I think was the 1970s.

 

I suppose the knack was surviving until the first big anniversary celebration, after that I suspect her antiquity and uniqueness guaranteed her further survival (that and the fact that the North Eastern evidently cared more about its locomotive heritage than Churchward cared for the GW's!).

Edited March 21, 2018 by Edwardian

[Hroth]

The other thing is that Locomotion and Derwent were'nt stored in the Works, under the daily eye of a "forward-looking" boss, who could use the space for building more new locos.  If the GW relics had been off-site, they might have stood a better chance of survival.  Added to which they were all Broad Gauge and a reminder of a design decision that Dean and Churchward had to rectify....

[Edwardian]

The other thing is that Locomotion and Derwent were'nt stored in the Works, under the daily eye of a "forward-looking" boss, who could use the space for building more new locos.  If the GW relics had been off-site, they might have stood a better chance of survival.  Added to which they were all Broad Gauge and a reminder of a design decision that Dean and Churchward had to rectify....

 

If only Swindon had been a museum and a designer retail outlet, things could have been so different ....

[sem34090]

If only the Brighton line had not been electrified so early! We may still have an L!

 

Currently my own print of Derwent resembles a red lump of plastic... hopefully there's a loco in there somewhere!

[Nearholmer]

If only the Brighton Line had been electrified when originally intended, we might have had a seriously interesting single-phase loco in about 1910.

 

Imagine this at the head of The Southern Belle, sweeping down the Quarry Line.

[Compound2632]

If only the Brighton Line had been electrified when originally intended, we might have had a seriously interesting single-phase loco in about 1910.

 

Imagine this at the head of The Southern Belle, sweeping down the Quarry Line.

 

Sweeping? Is that machine really capable of sustained 50 mph running?

[Compound2632]

Being the L&S, "Vulcan" is possibly the exemplar of Ur-Midland practice.  Ditch the wooden boiler cover, add a cab, more recent boiler fittings and paint it black.

 

Then its a Midland Johnson 2F 0-6-0!

 

 

Johnson 2F.jpg

 

 

(Image borrowed from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Railway_Johnson_0-6-0 )

 

 

"Its a Johnson!  I don't know when I last laid my hands on a Johnson!"  Nanny Ogg, Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett

 

I don't think Atlas has the 8'0" + 8'6" wheelbase...

 

... really established by Matthew Kirtley, who cut his teeth on the B&DJR's squad of 5'6" singles of what we would think of as quite conventional design.

[Nearholmer]

Indeed not; those earlies had a total wheelbase of c11’9”.

 

If ever I’m really idle, I’d like to chart the development of the 0-6-0 goods engine properly, from Atlas to the Q1 or similar, but my head is already overstuffed with useless factoids, so probably best not.

[Edwardian]

Sweeping? Is that machine really capable of sustained 50 mph running?

 

It's electric, Stephen, so it can do better than sweeping.  It can vacuum!

[Compound2632]

Indeed not; those earlies had a total wheelbase of c11’9”.

 

If ever I’m really idle, I’d like to chart the development of the 0-6-0 goods engine properly, from Atlas to the Q1 or similar, but my head is already overstuffed with useless factoids, so probably best not.

 

I think the limit of development was reached with the adoption of piston valves and superheating - i.e. Robinson's Great Central J9 of 1909 and its near contemporaries such as the Midland Class 4 goods and Ivatt's Great Northern J21 (LNER J2), both of 1911, and Hill's Great Eastern E72 (LNER J18) of the following year.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I was thinking piston valves, superheating, Belpaire boiler, but since it’s all iterative, does increasing boiler pressure count? It’s the usual story of diminishing returns, though, especially after 1910.

[Annie]

......nuclear reactor,  steam turbine........

 

I know I know I'll get me coat and 'at........ 

[Compound2632]

Yes, I was thinking piston valves, superheating, Belpaire boiler, but since it’s all iterative, does increasing boiler pressure count? It’s the usual story of diminishing returns, though, especially after 1910.

 

In the absence of any advance in materials technology, increasing boiler pressure came at the price of increased weight as the boiler plates got thicker - as can be seen if one looks at Johnson's Midland standard goods where, with no significant change in external dimensions, the pressure went from 140 psi in the 1870s to 160 psi in the 1890s, with the weight going up by about two tons. Of course earlier engines may have later received the higher pressure boilers. I'm not sure when there was a general change from iron to steel, which would have given some weight saving. I believe iron was favoured for a while as iron boilers corroded more slowly.

[Nearholmer]

Compound

 

You are sort of right, in that the ELok was rated for 46.875mph (75kph). It was a one-off test loco, used initially on the BLS, then later in Germany. The BLS series build locos of 1911/13 were massive beetle-crushers, designed to haul very heavy loads up hill; the goods version was rated 70kph, and the passenger 80kph.

 

Kevin

[sem34090]

I am concerned for the well-being of our gracious host, for I have not seen but one posting or contact from him since the evening of the day last passed. 

 

I hope that all is well in the good gentleman's household?

[Edwardian]

I am concerned for the well-being of our gracious host, for I have not seen but one posting or contact from him since the evening of the day last passed. 

 

I hope that all is well in the good gentleman's household?

 

Thanks, Sem.  All's well.

 

In court all day in The Smoke, and back late.

 

Tired, but currently sane!  We were victorious on behalf of the client, so not a bad day's work.

 

Some good came of it, as the Evening Standard has kindly furnished the means to undertake further papier mâché work on the layout.

[sem34090]

Ah yes. I find the Metro is adequate for my modelling requirements!

[ianLMS]

Ah yes. I find the Metro is adequate for my modelling requirements!

A first world problem - when newspapers dissappear due to the digital age, our chips won't taste the same and modellers will resort to using old PC's and tablets, phones etc to make scenery out of!!

[Edwardian]

A first world problem - when newspapers dissappear due to the digital age, our chips won't taste the same and modellers will resort to using old PC's and tablets, phones etc to make scenery out of!!

 

Yes, my modelling is simply one vast and elaborate recycling programme!