locoholic Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 After the incident in Lewisham, I was wondering just how long it is reasonable to keep passengers trapped on a train with no toilet? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43270403 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 To my mind if they couldn't reasonably expect to rescue the train within an hour they should have switched the current off and let people walk. This statement is for a train broken down on the edge of London and wouldn't apply to one stuck in a blizzard, miles from civilisation on the West Highland Line. I'll admit that I say this as someone that hates confined spaces and waiting for the loo and doesn't mind a long walk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43179 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 To my mind if they couldn't reasonably expect to rescue the train within an hour they should have switched the current off and let people walk. Especially as the trains were so close to the station - a controlled evacuation much sooner really should have been called for - I don't blame people for taking the situation into their own hands - the juice rail is probably going to be the last thing on their minds . I commute along that very route daily, and pay an obscene amount to do so - crammed in like cattle - the heating is on those trains either not working or on waaaay to hot - its uncomfortable at the best of times so being stuck like that for three hours doesn't bear thinking about - Seeing the pictures from people on board I would have been first out the door!! I was very lucky I decided to stay at work a little longer on friday or I could have been on one of those stuck trains Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 In time past, when station staff were more plentiful and better trained in the ways of the conductor rail, events like this would not happen. As it is, it is typical that the ogres of electrocution and being run into by moving train are raised by BTP, in particular, when the train is stationary, the platform end is within stone throwing distance of the front of the train and the conductor rail will almost certainly be in the six-foot. The biggest hazard is trying to walk down the cess path, in snow, along the top of an embankment. Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I don't blame people for taking the situation into their own hands - the juice rail is probably going to be the last thing on their minds Well that's okay then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 3, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2018 It does beg the question of what people are meant to do when they can't hold it in any longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 (edited) Especially as the trains were so close to the station - a controlled evacuation much sooner really should have been called for - I don't blame people for taking the situation into their own hands - the juice rail is probably going to be the last thing on their minds . I commute along that very route daily, and pay an obscene amount to do so - crammed in like cattle - the heating is on those trains either not working or on waaaay to hot - its uncomfortable at the best of times so being stuck like that for three hours doesn't bear thinking about - Seeing the pictures from people on board I would have been first out the door!! I was very lucky I decided to stay at work a little longer on friday or I could have been on one of those stuck trains Jon Please explain how you do a controlled evacuation with just one member of staff (the train driver) at the scene? Self evacuating passengers (or selfish tw@ as I call them) can cause more delays than the initial incident, as for your 3rd rail comment, you do know it can kill you dont you? Edited March 3, 2018 by royaloak 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 In time past, when station staff were more plentiful and better trained in the ways of the conductor rail, events like this would not happen. As it is, it is typical that the ogres of electrocution and being run into by moving train are raised by BTP, in particular, when the train is stationary, the platform end is within stone throwing distance of the front of the train and the conductor rail will almost certainly be in the six-foot. The biggest hazard is trying to walk down the cess path, in snow, along the top of an embankment. Jim You willing to bet on that? Ballast is bad enough to walk on at the best of times but doing it in the snow at the top of an embankment is asking for trouble, and then we are into the where there is blame there is a claim mentality. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2018 My cursory butchers of the BBC item suggests this is a microcosm of the evils that bedevil the industry. The few TOC staff on the station are, I believe, not allowed onto the track. There is no reason for anyone from NR to be anywhere nearby, and it is not for NR to dictate to a TOC when a train should be evacuated. There is no guard, merely a driver. Who is in charge? Discharging the current may reduce lighting etc within the train, limiting vision in the cess or on the track for passengers detraining. When I wrote the Investment Submission for DOO on South Central about thirty years ago - the first NSE Sub-Sector south of the Thames to implement DOO - the railway was a very different place. The current model for running the industry is fatally flawed, and that’s that. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 One way to focus minds might be for the controllers dealing with the issue not being allowed to have anything to eat, drink or use the bath room until the incident is concluded! 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted March 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2018 It does beg the question of what people are meant to do when they can't hold it in any longer. Carry an empty plastic milk carton with you in your duty rucksack. Once used, it will also double as a hand warmer for a reasonable amount of time! Also useful to have one in the car if you get stuck in a jam, especially in bad weather. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
43179 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Please explain how you do a controlled evacuation with just one member of staff (the train driver) at the scene? Self evacuating passengers (or selfish tw@ as I call them) can cause more delays than the initial incident, as for your 3rd rail comment, you do know it can kill you dont you? This didn't happen in the middle of the tundra though - the scene in question was literally yards from Lewisham station - I think that was a contributing factor to the frustration of those stuck on board. Looking at the photos, If the train had stopped about a coach length further down the line there could almost have been a set of doors on platform 4. I'm well aware of what the 3rd rail can do! but like I said, for all those people that clambered out that obviously wasn't enough of a concern to keep them on the train - and it didn't surprise me at all that it happened. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted March 3, 2018 Author Share Posted March 3, 2018 Please explain how you do a controlled evacuation After three hours on a train with no toilets, an UNcontrolled "evacuation" is much more likely. Seriously, sooner or later something like this will happen in hot weather and someone will die from heatstroke. The modern railway is gradually becoming unsuitable for use by human beings. There is no resilience, and people are expected to just go into suspended animation whilst railway staff try to figure out if they can shift the responsibility onto someone else. In this case, the passengers were within sight of a station. Their treatment was inexcusable, as is referring to them as selfish tw.ts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I wonder what the people who agree with this action would be saying if one or more had been electrocuted? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 - I don't blame people for taking the situation into their own hands - the juice rail is probably going to be the last thing on their minds Well, in that case it probably will be.... literally Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Serious question. Do we have anyone competent running the railway? DOO, autonomous commuter trains, no toilets. Just think how easy it will be for thugs and how bloody awful for passengers, sorry I mean customers! If you are on one of these trains for goodness sake do not take sick! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 How about train fails, driver radios control, Control can't get a fitter out so tries to get it pushed into station, After 15 minutes it becomes clear that that won't happen, in this time as many staff as possible have been sent to the station with other stations in the area left short. Between the staff on the ground (admittedly about 6) control and the driver a rescue is quickly organised. The driver announces over the PA that the power will soon go off, when it does he will manually open the door closest to the station but first issues instructions, The passengers are welcome to stay on the train but if they would like to walk (at own risk) they should form into groups of 5 and head to the front of the train (or back, if the station is nearer the back the driver walks through first).groups are expected to stick together with younger passengers helping less able. Some passengers would probably have to stay on the train but it would be a lot easier to look after a dozen elderly and disabled passengers than 700 cross commuters with a dozen more vulnerable people mixed in If staff are available they will help passengers down to the track, volunteers asked for if not. Driver makes a note of how many passengers are walking Passengers walk down the 4' to the station, followed by the nice people who helped them down Staff at station count passengers onto platform, When train is empty driver radios number of passengers that station should expect, trained personnel such as firemen could evacuate the remaining vulnerable passengers with stretchers. It would involve some risk assessments and probably some training but I can't see why it couldn't be done. A railway line that has no trains running and the 3rd rail isolated is not an intrinsically unsafe thing to walk on (assuming there aren't any girder bridges that you can fall through). Most people carry smartphones now and most of them have torches which would be helpful if they haven't been stuck so long that they all have flat batteries. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 It does beg the question of what people are meant to do when they can't hold it in any longer.In 3rd rail territory, be very careful which side window/door you pee out of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Power on or off, the cess is no place for people who don't know what they're doing. By far the biggest injury risk on the railway is slips trips and falls. A passenger slips over on the ice and the problem is much worse than some soiled trousers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) How about train fails, driver radios control, Control can't get a fitter out so tries to get it pushed into station, After 15 minutes it becomes clear that that won't happen, in this time as many staff as possible have been sent to the station with other stations in the area left short. Between the staff on the ground (admittedly about 6) control and the driver a rescue is quickly organised. The driver announces over the PA that the power will soon go off, when it does he will manually open the door closest to the station but first issues instructions, The passengers are welcome to stay on the train but if they would like to walk (at own risk) they should form into groups of 5 and head to the front of the train (or back, if the station is nearer the back the driver walks through first).groups are expected to stick together with younger passengers helping less able. Some passengers would probably have to stay on the train but it would be a lot easier to look after a dozen elderly and disabled passengers than 700 cross commuters with a dozen more vulnerable people mixed in If staff are available they will help passengers down to the track, volunteers asked for if not. Driver makes a note of how many passengers are walking Passengers walk down the 4' to the station, followed by the nice people who helped them down Staff at station count passengers onto platform, When train is empty driver radios number of passengers that station should expect, trained personnel such as firemen could evacuate the remaining vulnerable passengers with stretchers. It would involve some risk assessments and probably some training but I can't see why it couldn't be done. A railway line that has no trains running and the 3rd rail isolated is not an intrinsically unsafe thing to walk on (assuming there aren't any girder bridges that you can fall through). Most people carry smartphones now and most of them have torches which would be helpful if they haven't been stuck so long that they all have flat batteries. Station staff gradually ceased being trained in Personal Track Safety after privatisation and the process was complete at least 15 years ago AFAIK - nobody was willing to pay for it any more. None of the emergency services are given such training or permitted on the line without being overseen by qualified operational staff (almost exclusively NR) who establish a line blockage. Such people are spread very thin these days and you'd be very lucky to get more than two on site within a couple of hours under these conditions as most will already be committed elsewhere. If I were a controller, would I put my name to authorising a rag-tag mob onto the track under the "supervision" of TOC staff who nowadays won't know very much more than the people they are supposed to keep safe? Not in a million years. The real problem lies in train design - in particular the clot who came up with the idea of toilet-less trains. Electrification makes matters worse - at least with a diesel there is an on-board source of warmth and light. Perhaps it's time to insist on electric units being equipped with emergency back-up generators or batteries. That and providing the resources and staffing levels to ensure trains can be moved or evacuated safely before everything goes dark. In other words, reversing much of the cost-cutting imposed since privatisation. This and other incidents over the past few days illustrate that, even though there might be a Plan B, in many parts of the country, the people trained to put it into action will be too far away and too few in number to do much good within a reasonable timescale. As for the bailers-out, their choice, their risk. It is completely unreasonable to expect rail staff to put their necks on the block (in terms of criminal liability) by authorising actions that might sound fine in theory but are fraught with unquantifiable hazards in practice. John Edited March 4, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 As it was people bailed out after 3 hours with the con rail still live and potentially other trains running. If steps were in place they could have bailed out at their own risk after 1 hour onto track that would be considered safe to work on (no power to con rail or moving trains). It would need to be a management decision and worries of criminal liability might influence them to have more people with PTS training. Could they do a PTS-lite so people could go onto track that was officially under possession? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2018 Seriously, sooner or later something like this will happen in hot weather and someone will die from heatstroke. The modern railway is gradually becoming unsuitable for use by human beings. There is no resilience, and people are expected to just go into suspended animation whilst railway staff try to figure out if they can shift the responsibility onto someone else. In this case, the passengers were within sight of a station. Their treatment was inexcusable, as is referring to them as selfish tw.ts. Do you go round insulting everyone else you encounter? Quite frankly its your attitude to railway staff that makes me dismiss the public as selfish twats. The safest place to be during a train brakedon IS ON THAT TRAIN! and not strolling about the lineside. I know because I was out in it and even with some decent work books the ballast was like a skating rink - your average commuter was in very real danger of doing themselves an injury Please note that those stranded on the Weymouth bound service stayed put all night even though the toilets and heating failed. During hot weather the railway industry has very good contingency plans in place - but then its relatively easy for staff to get about by road and deliver water, asses underfoot conditions and put in place a controlled evacuation during a sunny day. With the country at large grinding to a halt through icy roads, etc its doesn't take a genius to work out and the railways suffering accordingly its no real surprise that organising a response took time - there were plenty of other incidents going on at the time. I assume that in your brain you reckon the driver should have told folk " the stations only a few yards away why don't you clamber down and make your own way there" and sod the consequences. Well there is a little thing called 'THE LEGAL SYSTEM' an I don't see why railway staff should open themselves up to litigation by going against procedure. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) We have a Victorian era railway, eg the cess is a dumping ground for materials and troughing routes and not the proper level paved footway with lighting for hours of darkness that H&S would require P-Way and S&T staff perform safety-critical maintenance, testing and calibration work on point machines and location cabinets by night using torchlight, there is electricity everywhere to power the equipment yet no provision for an S&T worker to plug in a decent lighting system Regarding train evacuation, if 100 passengers are evacuated to walk 800 yards on ballast,II estimate 10 or more would fall and have an injury on the way Edited March 4, 2018 by Pandora Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 Do you go round insulting everyone else you encounter? Quite frankly its your attitude to railway staff that makes me dismiss the public as selfish twats. The safest place to be during a train brakedon IS ON THAT TRAIN! and not strolling about the lineside. I know because I was out in it and even with some decent work books the ballast was like a skating rink - your average commuter was in very real danger of doing themselves an injury Please note that those stranded on the Weymouth bound service stayed put all night even though the toilets and heating failed. During hot weather the railway industry has very good contingency plans in place - but then its relatively easy for staff to get about by road and deliver water, asses underfoot conditions and put in place a controlled evacuation during a sunny day. With the country at large grinding to a halt through icy roads, etc its doesn't take a genius to work out and the railways suffering accordingly its no real surprise that organising a response took time - there were plenty of other incidents going on at the time. I assume that in your brain you reckon the driver should have told folk " the stations only a few yards away why don't you clamber down and make your own way there" and sod the consequences. Well there is a little thing called 'THE LEGAL SYSTEM' an I don't see why railway staff should open themselves up to litigation by going against procedure. Quite frankly it's posts like yours from railway staff that explain why situations like at Lewisham arise. Firstly, I didn't insult anyone - I referred to an insult made by another poster. Secondly, exactly how long can "professional" railway staff fanny about before the right of passengers to self-preservation overrules your precious rulebook? To leave the third rail live for three hours in the vicinity of a broken-down train is at least as irresponsible as the passengers bailing out. And to leave the train driver to cope alone with a stationary train full of passengers for three hours is equally irresponsible. So I really think that you have no grounds whatsoever for blaming the passengers when there were clearly so many failures on the part of the railway, stemming at least in part from the jobsworth mentality that you exhibit so clearly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Its obviously not the drivers fault but the procedure is wrong if people are trapped in those conditions for that long right next to the station. I'm sure the ballast was slippy but its snowing, everywhere is slippy. I imagine that any sane passengers were wearing sensible footware. Edited March 4, 2018 by Hesperus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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