DMU Driving to Intermediate Trailer Conversion?

[FPH 603]

Hi all,

 

I plan on extending a plan of mine for a two car DMU into a two/three car interchangeable set. I want to make an intermediate car converted from a driving car, however do I rebuild the cab end or do I panel over the windows, or just leave it as is?

 

Thanks!

[uax6]

Leave it as it is, there are plenty of photos about of three car sets made up of all driving vehicles.....

 

Andy G

[chrisf]

That depends at least in part on what make of dmu car you are talking about.  You might be able to do it with a Derby Lightweight but don'r even think about it with a MetCamm or post-1955 Derby.  An hour or so looking at photographs would be an hour well spent.

 

Chris

[timbowilts]

It depends on what era you are modelling? Some second generation sprinters were converted to three car sets with the “middle” cab sealed out of use but no other modifications

 

Tim T

[HillsideDepot]

DMUs by their nature were designed to be mix and matched, as you describe (although being brought up on the Western Region, semi-permanent sets were the way of things, although a double cabbed "Bubble car" could take the place of a Driving motor to keep a 3-car set in traffic) albeit only where they shared the same Multiple Working equipment.  

 

I can't think of any where modifications were done: it'd defeat the multiple unit idea.

 

Even now there are nominally 2-car Sprinters running around as 3-car sets (GWR have 150s and 158s formed thus) but apart from set number changes to help staff know what's what they are unmodified (hesitating here, there may be a corridor connection adaptor involved) as they have to go back to the leasing company as 2-cars.

 

However, I can think of permanent couplings of 2 x 2-car EMUs on the Southern (EPBs?) where the only apparent modification was painting the cab ends blue where the two sets were joined and then amending the set numbers on the outer ends.  

[FPH 603]

This is (unusually) for a Cravens DMU, specifically a class 112. This would date c. Late 1960's to Early 1970's.

[uax6]

on the railcar website this is noted for a 113 set :A Class 113 was noted running with a Class 127 centre car (51732 + 59623 + 51761) on Kentish Town - Barking services on March 2 1963. See the image on page 117 of the Brian Morrison book.

 

otherwise they stayed in their power twin formation....

 

Andy G

[FPH 603]

I originally had the idea of putting a Derby Lightweight trailer in the middle, but I'm thinking of making something 'special', potentially to be given an unofficial name. I was thinking some kind of small buffet, and as my layout is fictional along with it's history I came up with the idea that it claimed 5 withdrawn Class 112 vehicles in 1969 (and maybe 2 Class 113's too?) and revived them, but them having a spare (the fifth Class 112) would become the intermediate car I'm planning to create.

 

I don't know if this even makes sense but anyway...

 

EDIT: OR, the WR converted old Hawksworth coaches into DMU centre cars, so as an equivalent for the NER/ER I could do something similar to an ex-LNER Thompson coach, although the height difference would be notable and I would have to change the gangways so they are compatible with the two DMU cars.

Edited March 10, 2018 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[cheesysmith]

DMUs by their nature were designed to be mix and matched, as you describe (although being brought up on the Western Region, semi-permanent sets were the way of things, although a double cabbed "Bubble car" could take the place of a Driving motor to keep a 3-car set in traffic) albeit only where they shared the same Multiple Working equipment.  

 

I can't think of any where modifications were done: it'd defeat the multiple unit idea.

 

Even now there are nominally 2-car Sprinters running around as 3-car sets (GWR have 150s and 158s formed thus) but apart from set number changes to help staff know what's what they are unmodified (hesitating here, there may be a corridor connection adaptor involved) as they have to go back to the leasing company as 2-cars.

 

However, I can think of permanent couplings of 2 x 2-car EMUs on the Southern (EPBs?) where the only apparent modification was painting the cab ends blue where the two sets were joined and then amending the set numbers on the outer ends.

 

The 158s using the driving cars as intermediate cars require a gangway adaptor plate as the cab gangways are standard Pullman but the intermediate ones are larger (same as the mk4s). The second generation dmus have a multi working socket that can be used because the inner ends don't have the electrical MU box on the couplings. This is more noticeable on the 158s as it is covered by a hatch on the front air dam.

[SRman]

...

 

However, I can think of permanent couplings of 2 x 2-car EMUs on the Southern (EPBs?) where the only apparent modification was painting the cab ends blue where the two sets were joined and then amending the set numbers on the outer ends.  

 

4 CAP units, made up from two 2 HAP units marshalled with DMBS cars in the centre of the unit.

 

A similar thing happened with the remaining four 2-car DEMUs of class 205 (2H), which had the ex-2 EPB driving trailers from disbanded 3R 'Tadpole' units inserted into the centres to make 3-car units of class 204 (3T). Confused? The SR and BR(S) did a lot of this sort of thing over many years to meet changing traffic requirements.

[FPH 603]

What should it be?

 

The converted Thompson?

 

OR

 

The converted 112?

 

OR

 

A centre vehicle from another class?

[cheesysmith]

Get a centre car from a Hornby 110, remove the window surrounds and smooth off the body side crease that Hornby put on for some reason that ono one knows why, then call it a 104 trailier centre coach and add it to the formation, or a lima 101 centre car. They were all blue square so could work with each other.

[The Johnster]

I did this with a Lima 117 years ago, converting it to a 116 at the same time.  It took 5 vehicles, 2 DMBS and 3 TCL, to cut and shut into the correct DMBS/TS/DMS formation.  Faffy but not difficult, though I considered the non-lavatory TC version to be beyond practicable.  The hardest part was providing tolerably smooth joins; the chassis' kept everything reasonably level.  My choice of early plain green livery without lining probably helped in this respect.  Keep the joins on the door lines.

 

But this was sort of predicated on the original Derby high-density concept of standard size compartments and window/seating bays, used on the 117/8 as well, along with the 'Derby Cab'.  I didn't have to remove any cabs, or mess with underframes beyond ensuring that one without engines went under the TC. I would not like to comment on mix/matching cut and shutting with low density bodies of different manufacture and prototype.

 

The set still gets an occasional outing as an excursion from Cwmdimbath, perhaps Barry Island for Sunday School Whitsun Treat, or to the rugby in Cardiff.

[FPH 603]

Get a centre car from a Hornby 110, remove the window surrounds and smooth off the body side crease that Hornby put on for some reason that ono one knows why, then call it a 104 trailier centre coach and add it to the formation, or a lima 101 centre car. They were all blue square so could work with each other.

I did this with a Lima 117 years ago, converting it to a 116 at the same time.  It took 5 vehicles, 2 DMBS and 3 TCL, to cut and shut into the correct DMBS/TS/DMS formation.  Faffy but not difficult, though I considered the non-lavatory TC version to be beyond practicable.  The hardest part was providing tolerably smooth joins; the chassis' kept everything reasonably level.  My choice of early plain green livery without lining probably helped in this respect.  Keep the joins on the door lines.

 

But this was sort of predicated on the original Derby high-density concept of standard size compartments and window/seating bays, used on the 117/8 as well, along with the 'Derby Cab'.  I didn't have to remove any cabs, or mess with underframes beyond ensuring that one without engines went under the TC. I would not like to comment on mix/matching cut and shutting with low density bodies of different manufacture and prototype.

 

The set still gets an occasional outing as an excursion from Cwmdimbath, perhaps Barry Island for Sunday School Whitsun Treat, or to the rugby in Cardiff.

These sound like great ideas BUT I have no experience in cutting and shutting and the 117/8 is a WR DMU and would not be suitable for an ER/NER layout. I'm now leaning towards the Thompson conversion now though.

[Northmoor]

I did this with a Lima 117 years ago, converting it to a 116 at the same time.  It took 5 vehicles, 2 DMBS and 3 TCL, to cut and shut into the correct DMBS/TS/DMS formation.  Faffy but not difficult, though I considered the non-lavatory TC version to be beyond practicable.  The hardest part was providing tolerably smooth joins; the chassis' kept everything reasonably level.  My choice of early plain green livery without lining probably helped in this respect.  Keep the joins on the door lines.

 

But this was sort of predicated on the original Derby high-density concept of standard size compartments and window/seating bays, used on the 117/8 as well, along with the 'Derby Cab'.  I didn't have to remove any cabs, or mess with underframes beyond ensuring that one without engines went under the TC. I would not like to comment on mix/matching cut and shutting with low density bodies of different manufacture and prototype.

 

The set still gets an occasional outing as an excursion from Cwmdimbath, perhaps Barry Island for Sunday School Whitsun Treat, or to the rugby in Cardiff.

I was considering converting one of my much-loved Lima 117s into a 116, but what you've just described has put me right off, or at least to near the back of the projects queue!  I hadn't done any research so hadn't noticed the difference in formation beyond the obvious headcode box/destination blind.  

 

Lima's 117 is one of those models that seem, with hindsight, to be less than optimal prototype choices (like the Hornby 21/29).  For most of their lives, 117s never left the Thames Valley.  A 116 would have suited South Wales, West Midlands, Glasgow Suburban....

[The Johnster]

I was considering converting one of my much-loved Lima 117s into a 116, but what you've just described has put me right off, or at least to near the back of the projects queue!  I hadn't done any research so hadn't noticed the difference in formation beyond the obvious headcode box/destination blind.  

 

Lima's 117 is one of those models that seem, with hindsight, to be less than optimal prototype choices (like the Hornby 21/29).  For most of their lives, 117s never left the Thames Valley.  A 116 would have suited South Wales, West Midlands, Glasgow Suburban....

 

 

Well, I certainly didn't mean to put anyone off having a go!

 

It's a fairly straightforward job, the hardest part being the cab roof headcode boxes; these have to be cut off, and the hole filed in, in my case with milliput but any similar filler will do.  Get it roughly right and sand it down to shape by eye.  Then you have to make a new destination blind box to fit into it.  I formed these up from a length of brass angle of suitable size I found in my local model shop.  Cut it to a short length, about ½", fill the end with milliput and paint it black, and then apply whatever destination transfer you want, then cut a piece of plastiglaze to fit.

 

The Lima 117 as supplied is wrong except for some power twins that ran shortly before withdrawal; the real 3-car sets consisted of a Driving Motor Brake Second, Trailer Composite with central lavatories, and a Driving Motor Second; this last vehicle is not modelled by Lima and another DMBS is supplied.  To make a correct 117 3-car set you need to chop the brake compartment off one of the DMBS and a length of the second class part of the TCL which then sits where the brake compartment was; save the exhaust pipes from the DMBS and drill holes in the new end for them.

 

116 is a slightly more complex issue.  There are several variations of cab front layout with different marker lights and, on early sets, a two character headcode panel.  My familiarity is with the WR ones.  The early sets featured a trailer composite without a lavatory (the sets were not gangwayed until the mid 60s and later in some areas; some may have been withdrawn without gangways.  You will have to remove the Lima gangways and fill the holes according to the period you are modelling), with a similar internal layout to the mk1 non-gangwayed loco hauled non lavatory composites but with an open saloon layout instead of compartment dividers.  Both classes were laid out internally to the standard for high-density stock used on loco hauled, dmu, SR 3rd rail, and 25kv multiple unit for the LTSR, Liverpool St-Barking, and Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe trains, but AFAIK the mk1 composites that survive in preservation are all the later central lavatory type from the Great Northern suburban services where they survived longes, and on which the 117's TCL is based, so cannot be used as a guide.  When I built my 116, sets were still running in the South Wales valleys and I could check the layout and positions of internal saloon dividers between smoking and non smoking areas.

 

For earlier non-gangwayed sets of both types, the seats next the compartment dividers continued across the width of the coach, and can be moulded from milliput or similar.  The dividers as provided by Lima accurately represent the later type fitted at the time the sets were gangwayed, and include a door for the guard to get through and for passengers to access the lavatory on 117s.  Originally these had no door and 3 evenly spaced rectangular windows so you could see into the next compartment, but I cannot recall if 'no smoking' labels were provided.  These windows were in mahogany frames which stood out against the formica sheeting on the dividers.  On South Wales 116s, the first class was deregulated at the same time gangways appeared, in connection with a destaffing of stations and on board ticked sales by the guard (1966?), and, retaining the first class seating and being away from vibrating engines in the trailer, were the best place on the train to sit!

 

My set is based on the later form of 116 produced for Bristol area suburban work, with 4 marker lights (brass tubing with white painted milliput in the ends and plastiglazing like the destination blind panel) and has no first class at all.  The layout of the DMBS is identical to the 117 and only the cab needs work, but the other 2 vehicles have to be cut and shut.  The underframes are fine as they are, but I picked out engines and other parts in silver to represent a set in new condition.  I have since found out that it is incorrect for South Wales in the period I wanted, though sets of this type did turn up here later, but have decided to live with the anomaly.

 

Don't forget that in earlier years these sets carried oil tail lamps and the rear markers were not used in service, a very common mistake on exhibition layouts.  Red shades were carried in a wooden box with slides for them to fit in in each cab, screwed to the front of the desk, so the intention was there but a separate tail lamp was still though necessary to indicate a complete train to signalmen (except on the Southern, which was quite happy with it's red blinds)

 

If you can get hold of old Ian Allan Combined Volume or DMU trainspotting books at shows or swapmeets, they are very useful for photographs, though do not show all the variations!  Don't start cutting your beloved sets up until the new Baccy 117 comes out; you can then use this as a guide, but Lima vehicles turn up on eBay in various stages of disrepair that might be worth a punt to have a go on.  But, please, have a go; I'd hate to think I'd stopped you!

 

116s also worked pre-electrification Lea Valley services on the ER, where they got into a spectacularly decrepit and vandalised state, and 117s could be seen as far west as Bristol, but were used on stopping main line work in preference to local trains because the lavatory made them more suitable for longer distances, especially after they were fitted with gangways.  

 

Ah, the fumes and the rattling windows, happy days...

Edited March 11, 2018 by The Johnster

[stewartingram]

125 units were the initial staple diet on the Lea Valley lines. I converted Lima cars into a 3-car set of these many years ago. The centre car was made of 10 slices from 117 parts!

 

Stewart

[chrisf]

Johnster, it was the first batch of 116s that had the four marker lights and not the 2 character headcode box.  The third batch was the one produced for Bristol. There was some picking and mixing between the three batches.  I don't have time now to explain nore fully but I will in a day or two.

 

Chris

[FPH 603]

These sound like great ideas BUT I have no experience in cutting and shutting and the 117/8 is a WR DMU and would not be suitable for an ER/NER layout. I'm now leaning towards the Thompson conversion now though.

 

I've refined my list, I'll probably end up doing a centre vehicle from another class, so here's a list of potential options:

 

- Derby Lightweight

 

- Class 101

 

- Class 104

 

- Class 105

 

- Class 107/108

 

- Class 111?

[uax6]

You can't use an original Derby Lightweight, as they are Yellow Diamond coded, but you can use a 108.... 

 

The 111 and 101 trailers aren't much different, unless you want a buffet car..

 

You could use a 110 trailer (after modding Hornbys weird body shape!)

 

Andy G

[FPH 603]

You can't use an original Derby Lightweight, as they are Yellow Diamond coded, but you can use a 108.... 

 

The 111 and 101 trailers aren't much different, unless you want a buffet car..

 

You could use a 110 trailer (after modding Hornbys weird body shape!)

 

Andy G

The Derby Lightweight would need rewiring, but assuming this coach would come stripped to some extent and would require a bit of work to restore.

[Northmoor]

If you can get hold of old Ian Allan Combined Volume or DMU trainspotting books at shows or swapmeets, they are very useful for photographs, though do not show all the variations!  Don't start cutting your beloved sets up until the new Baccy 117 comes out; you can then use this as a guide, but Lima vehicles turn up on eBay in various stages of disrepair that might be worth a punt to have a go on.  But, please, have a go; I'd hate to think I'd stopped you!

 

Ah, the fumes and the rattling windows, happy days...

Excellent info Johnster, many thanks.  Fortunately I have quite a collection of Ian Allans/Platform 5s going back to 1978 and some earlier.  You haven't put me off permanently!  This project has just moved down the list....  I always knew about the lack of a DMS - an understandable economy from Lima - but hadn't appreciated the centre coach being so different.  As for the roof boxes, I think i have some Chris Leigh castings somewhere.

 

I think you and I may make up a fair proportion of those who look back fondly on the rattling windows, luggage racks, the count-to-five gear changes.  At a diesel gala a few years ago I rode in a couple of 1st Gen DMUs and realised how much character they had.

[chrisf]

Johnster, it was the first batch of 116s that had the four marker lights and not the 2 character headcode box.  The third batch was the one produced for Bristol. There was some picking and mixing between the three batches.  I don't have time now to explain nore fully but I will in a day or two.

 

Chris

 

I will start a new thread for this so that DoubleDeckInterUrban can have his thread back.

 

Chris

[Andy W]

Let's get back to the original question, which nobody can really answer because no DMU driving trailers or driving motor cars ever were converted to intermediates.

This is because:

(a) too many first generation non driving trailers were built in the first place as traffic was declining at the time, so sets started being reduced from 4 to 3 cars and from 3 to 2 as early as the late 1960s. There were always spare non-driving trailers if it was necessary to lengthen sets again for some reason. (or they just coupled driving cars on the end without converting them in any way). Some of the first non-driving trailers to face the chop were the ones with buffets, as a buffet was uneconomic on a 3 or 4 coach train on the routes they used. Even when the buffet equipped trailer remained in service, almost inevitably by the 1970s the buffet counter was locked up and disused.

Buffet trailers were built new in class 101/111, 119, 120, 124, but could have been coupled into any Blue Square set, which of course is the vast majority of units built.

 

(b) Sprinter (second generation) dmus had gangways on both ends as built (though the issue with class 158s is detailed earlier) so there has never been a need to convert anything, they couple together in any formation you want, and are often re-formed differently from one month to the next. The only second generation buffet cars are class 170 units, though there are only a small number. These remain as the centre car in the three car sets they were delivered as part of, and have never been used with anything else.

 

So - there's absolutely no real-world example of what you want to do, it is your railway, your decision as to how you do it.

[Titan]

Funny how much discussion ensues after the definitive answer was already given in the second post!