Pushpull/Autocoach not using pushpull loco?

[w124bob]

There plenty of pictures out there of one off instancies but I'm looking at regular booked work and why. The example that springs to mind is the Watlingford branch,autocoach and non fitted pannier ran the branch for years, but why? I guess GWR will be dominant but I'd also be interested in other examples.

[chrisf]

In the case of the Watlington branch there were a number of ground level platforms for which the trailer's retractable steps made boarding and alighting much easier.  The Slough to Windsor branch in 1955 had two auto trailers working non-auto and if I recall correctly the Merthyr - Pontsticill Junction branch train was formed of a trailer worked non-auto.  In that case the loco spent upwards of two hours shunting and to do that with the trailer attached would have been cumbersome, not to say bizarre.

 

Chris

Edited March 17, 2018 by chrisf

[Jub45565]

The Worth Valley branch had a lunchtime turn with a motor train set usually Fairburn hauled. Not quite sure why off the top of my head, but I think more details are in Midland Record issues 34 & 35.

 

It may have been when the motor train running the rest of the service was having a longer run, to Bradford FS, to charge the batteries - but why the fiĺl in also needed PP fitted stock...

[The Johnster]

The Lambourne branch also featured auto trailers working in non-auto mode with non-auto fitted locos.  In this case a combination of ground level halt platforms which needed the rectracting steps and frequent tail traffic in the form of horseboxes which put the trains beyond the capability of a auto locomotive to keep time with were the reason for using 'conventional' locos, often Dean Goods as it was a long branch with few water columns.

 

Photos of the Abergwynfi branch in South Wales often show trains formed of auto trailers, up to 3 of them, hauled by 57xx or 56xx locos.  I suspect Tondu, which provided auto fitted motive power for this and the Nantymoel, Ogmore Vale, Gilfach Goch, and Porthcawl branches, did not have sufficient auto fitted locos allocated to reliably cover them all; Rail UK shows 4x 64xx and one 4575, which does not leave much wobble room even when you allocate them one per branch.  I would expect, but do not know for a fact, that Abergwynfi was close to the limit for water supply for a 64xx as well.  This is of course after the introduction of auto working to the area in the mid 50s, and does not apply to GW or early BR working.

[w124bob]

It's apprent then that autotrailers were not in short supply, branch tail traffic was clearly an influence, throw in combinations of low platforms etc for an excuse for some interesting workings.

[chrisf]

It's apprent then that autotrailers were not in short supply

 

Actually, there were times when they were.  There were also times when auto-fitted locos were in short supply.  An example of the first is the Exe Valley line which ran from Exeter to Dulverton.  It was supposed to have three push-pull sets but at times only one could be turned out, the other two diagrams being covered by ordinary coaches.  In the mid 50's there was a brief period when all but one of Newton Abbot's 14xx tanks were in shops.  The available one covered the Brixham branch while the supposed autos to Moretonhampstead were hauled by Prairie tanks.  The sight of a 51xx running round one trailer at the terminus must have been one for sore eyes.

 

Chris  

[The Johnster]

Tondu seems to have been adequately supplied with trailers during the mid 50s and up to the end of auto working in the area on the Porthcawl branch, types ranging from pre Great War Diagram N wood panelled through A27/30 and A38 to compartment A44 flat enders.  But, as Mr Foren points out, this was by no means the case everywhere and at all times.  South Wales auto working in general was heavy on trailer use, with some services requiring 3 or 4 coach trains at peak periods (hence the provision of auto-fitted 4575s), and were a long way from the bucolic vision normally associated with auto work.  The 'St Fagan's Pullman', 64xx and 2 trailers, worked light from Abercynon-Pontypridd, then a return trip to Cardiff Clarence Road via Tonteg and the Barry main line to St Fagan's junction, complete with fast run on the SWML stopping at Ely, with 2 return trips to Penarth before returning to Pontypridd at lunch time, when the crew was relieved, then a repeat of the performance in the afternoon!  The mileage would be respectable for a main line turn for a Hall or Castle, but we are talking about a 64xx on one bunker of coal!

 

Or think about a Bute Road-Coryton service; 4575 sandwiched between 3 or 4 trailers and having to get up the 1 in 90 to Heath Junction as fast as possible to keep out of the way of the intensive Rhynmey (contemporary spelling) traffic, and you will see why experienced firemen were preferred for auto work!

 

This suggests that a ratio of about 3 trailers for each loco is about normal.  The actual number of auto trailers at any one time compared to the number of locos is not far off this, and probably reached a peak of use in the 1950s; this was very much the case in South Wales and I imagine was repeated elsewhere.  Canton kept a 54xx and a railcar spare for substitution in the area, but I am unaware of them working Tondu diagrams; photos of Cowbridge branch workings from Llantrisant show them though.

Edited March 18, 2018 by The Johnster

[lapford34102]

On the Southern Region the service on the "old road" from Hamworthy to Brockenhurst via Wimborne was an M7 and maunsell push-pull set. When the M7's were retired Ivatt 2mt's were used instead. Think they tacked a BY van on the non brake end of the set.

 

In one book I have there's a picture of a GWR Bulldog hauling a single autocoach into Bincombe tunnel.Undoubtedly a one-off.

 

Stu

[Nick Holliday]

On the LBSCR, following the initial experimentation with two converted Terriers, the results were so impressive that they decided to provide a similar service using the new railmotor trailers, but using unaltered Terriers, 642 Tulse Hill, 644 Fulham, and 655 Stepney, even though they had to run round the trailers at each end. This situation lasted for around four months, before more Terriers were fitted with equipment for railmotor operation.

Later on, railmotor trailers were used regularly on the Dyke branch, even though they couldn't operate as pull-push units due to the gradients. This also allowed a wide variety of non-fitted locos, such as E1 0-6-0, E4 and E5 0-6-2 and I3 4-4-2, to be used. Whether the better views provided by these coaches was seen as a benefit on this scenic line, I don't know.

[ady77014]

I remember seeing a image of the Chalford - Gloucester 'Auto' service being run using a 94xx pannier tank, which of course meant a run-round at each end...

[Pannier Tank]

The available one covered the Brixham branch while the supposed autos to Moretonhampstead were hauled by Prairie tanks.  The sight of a 51xx running round one trailer at the terminus must have been one for sore eyes.

 

I think the BR Std 3MT also looked the part.

[Marshall5]

After the LMR takeover of the former GWR routes in N.Wales the Oswestry - Gobowen shuttle retained its Western Region auto-trailers but the 14xx/54xx were replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2T's which required them to run round at each end.  Shortly before closure an ex LMS push pull set appeared on the Barmouth - Dolgelley shuttle and was worked by Ivatt 2-6-0's..

Ray.

[Wickham Green]

I've seen a few pictures of seemingly oddball examples of Pull & Push sets in 'normal' use on the Southern - but the recent 'Cuckoo Line' book is absolutely FULL of them ! : http://www.crecy.co.uk/the-cuckoo-line. 

 

The other regular place to see P/P vehicles in non-P/P mode on the Southern was the Hayling Island branch where one or two Maunsell driving trailers were used in 'hauled' mode with other stock for some reason.

[dibber25]

There's a nice photo of a Dean Goods working an auto trailer at Colnbrook - the only picture I've ever seen of a tender loco on the Staines branch. (CJL)

[The Great Bear]

Away from library so could be mistaken but a picture of a Collett Goods and autocoach on the Wallingford branch, in the 50s rings a bell. A very rare occurrence I should think, failure of branch engine and no more suitable loco eg another 14xx or pannier available or something?

[The Johnster]

 

One might find auto trailers/push-pull trains worked by locomotives not fitted with the appropriate gear as conventional, run around, stock anywhere and at any time due to failure of the fitted locomotive or it's gear, or shortage of experienced passed firemen on the Western, but these were abnormal one-off events; I think the OP was trying to find out about regular booked workings of this sort.  These were not AFAIK specified in working timetables, though may have been in local instructions such as for the Lambourn branch.

 

As a consequence, one must rely on photographic evidence, but this is not able to necessarily confirm that the working was booked to be loco hauled auto/push-pull stock or if it is simply an out of course working to cover a failure; this in itself might be what has attracted the attention of the photographer, who is usually an enthusiast and interested in such happenings.  I mentioned the Abergwnfi branch; this seems to have attracted more than the normal amount of attention from photographers (try finding similar numbers of images of Nantymoel or Gilfach Goch), probably because it was blessed with an excellent veiwpoint and well lit on a sunny afternoon!  

 

 

Image shows this well, a 57xx with 3 auto trailers of A27/30 type, likely some time mid-late 50s, and the only colour image I've seen of the station.  This is by no means the only shot of auto trailers with non-auto fitted locos on this branch as a quick squiz on Wikipedia Images will reveal.  I have never seen a shot of any of the Tondu 64xx here, but have seen one of a 4575 with 2 auto trailers.  Even this is not a confirmation that the train was working in auto mode, as there is always the possibility that the gear on loco or coaches has failed and the train is being worked conventionally.  The loco cannot be absolutely identified, but has to be 5556, Tondu's only auto fitted 4575 and the loco I will be renumbering my Bachmann 4587 as when I get a round tuit.  It is in plain black unicycling lion livery in the photo, and I am trying to ascertain it if every carried the lined green of the Baccy model, which is brilliantly weathered by it's previous owner, one NHY of this parish, and I don't want to repaint it unless I have to!

Edited March 19, 2018 by The Johnster

[neilkirby]

On 19/03/2018 at 17:12, dibber25 said:

There's a nice photo of a Dean Goods working an auto trailer at Colnbrook - the only picture I've ever seen of a tender loco on the Staines branch. (CJL)

Hi Chris,

 

I know you posted this last year, but I have just found it, A work colleague of mine who's family come from Staines showed me a photo a while back of some of his family by a 63xx Mogul, which he told me was taken in Staines.  From memory you could not see enough background to know where it was taken.  and I think I looked up the locomotive allocation and found at times it was a Reading engine, so may have been at Staines Central?

Regards,

 

Neil

[Aire Head]

A picture from another topic shows the Worth Valley push pull set potentially being worked as no push pull as there is a driving car immediately behind the locomotive.

[dibber25]

9 hours ago, neilkirby said:

Hi Chris,

 

I know you posted this last year, but I have just found it, A work colleague of mine who's family come from Staines showed me a photo a while back of some of his family by a 63xx Mogul, which he told me was taken in Staines.  From memory you could not see enough background to know where it was taken.  and I think I looked up the locomotive allocation and found at times it was a Reading engine, so may have been at Staines Central?

Regards,

 

Neil

More likely at Staines West. The branch was 'red' weight restriction, so the 2-6-0s would have been OK. I know that, towards the end of steam, some GWR locos did work through from Reading to Feltham via Staines Central but I think by that time the moguls were extinct and it was mainly 'Halls'. Even so, living right beside the line, I never saw any. The only WR loco I saw at that time was a Hymek returning light engine from Feltham to Reading. (CJL)

[w124bob]

The Worth Valley 3 car set had a driving cab coach at each end and a far as I'm aware unique to BR as it was also corridor stock.  

[billbedford]

There were 10 LMS corridor coaches converted to P&P:

 

3 - D.1851 BTK 

4 - D.1692 TO

3- D.1807 TO

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, w124bob said:

The Worth Valley 3 car set had a driving cab coach at each end and a far as I'm aware unique to BR as it was also corridor stock.  

Although the GW Plymouth Area 70’ trailers were gangwayed within sets; not corridor though.  Some clerestory conversions were, but not gangwayed; none survived into BR service though. 

[Jub45565]

On 12/10/2019 at 14:54, billbedford said:

There were 10 LMS corridor coaches converted to P&P:

 

3 - D.1851 BTK 

4 - D.1692 TO

3- D.1807 TO

 

Plus a D1999 (sandwiched between two of the D1851s in the above photo) and a D1915, though I am yet to see photographic evidence of it in use anywhere.

 

The mid day run up the branch often unused a Fairburn tank. The main push pull set ran to Bradford FS & back to charge the batteries, but the Fairburn often used the spare push pull set by the looks.

 

The Midland Record and LMS journal series' have a lot of info covering this.

[Nearholmer]

To reinforce what Wickham Green has observed, the Oxted Lines-East Sussex complex (and they were fiendishly complex) of services involved diagrams where 2PP (two car pull-push) sets spent the day bobbing around between PP use and ordinary hauled use, being combined into longer rakes with other sets, de-combining etc. The coaching stock diagrams in that area must have won awards for ingenuity!

 

The reasons were that the area was commuter territory for a few hours morning and evening, requiring long trains all the way to/from London, but off-peak the traffic was mainly not London-centric, but to/from the bigger towns in the area (East Grinstead, Tunbridge Wells, Eastbourne etc) for schools, shopping, and access to hospitals etc, which involved quite a few short workings. And, there were a lot of connections, and a lot of joining/splitting of trains to ensure that the entire tangle of routes was always accessible to/from London, even if the journey times off-peak were a bit long.

 

 

[Andy Kirkham]

On 17/03/2018 at 18:10, The Johnster said:

The Lambourne branch also featured auto trailers working in non-auto mode with non-auto fitted locos.  In this case a combination of ground level halt platforms which needed the rectracting steps and frequent tail traffic in the form of horseboxes which put the trains beyond the capability of a auto locomotive to keep time with were the reason for using 'conventional' locos, often Dean Goods as it was a long branch with few water columns.

 

 

Illustrated in George Behrend's Gone With Regret. There are two pictures of Lambourn branch trains, one by J.G. Dewing and one by Maurice Earley. Each has an auto trailer sandwiched between two clerestories.