Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[thirty2a]

Overhang looks about right 

[coline33]

3 hours ago, thirty2a said:

I really only picked the Sunderland one up for its motor bit of a bargain, that and tower wagon £50! But I have got fond of it so might get a re paint and some new trucks ...

No, Tony, Sunderland 100 was Cissie not Blossom.   Blossom was 'MET Experimental Car No.1' and Cissie 'MET Experimental Car No.3'.   It was Cissie that could not take a plough carrier but then it was built not for the through MET services into London which required the plough.   Cissie was a 70 seater high standing capacity car for shifting rush hour loadings when Golders Green was the end of the Tube to Finchley Central, North Finchley and Whetstone.   All you need for Cissie are the truck sides so I will see if what is the nearest casting available to suit.   Cissie today is still on her London trucks which BR Engineering did a marvellous job overhauling them for Crich. 

[coline33]

The thing about LCC traversers is that they were that they just took the production Felthams total wheel base so you seem to have plenty room to reduce overshooting!!!   The length of the Feltham was the initial problem on the Streatham traversers as the roof stantions prevented the sideways movement.   Thus the roof stantions of the traverser halls had to be relocated further away.   This is why scrapping at BH was moved to a hastily reopened depot in Aurelia Road (often called Mitcham depot as it was off Mitcham Road) which LPTB had to rename Croydon Depot so that Cohen's men knew that they had to stay on the tram over Mitcham Common and not get off before, when going south!

 

That traverser looks very good.

[thirty2a]

Thanks Colin, informative as ever, yes I misread your post re Cissie and blossom.

the traverser can’t be any larger due to initial placement of sleepers. We shall see how it develops...

[coline33]

Tony. Sunderland 100.   If your mech came from the Bachmann Brill then you could reinsert those truck sides.   There really is not a great deal of difference that would be noticeable.   After all Spencer went to the States to get ideas and as Cissie is a Feltham-ised version of New York Railway's Broadway Battleship which was probably on Brills anyway!   Colin.

[thirty2a]

To be honest Colin I’m not sure what mech it has ! Believe it or not a have run it but not taken it apart as yet, so might just repaint it in LT red and use as yet unused brill for the United feltham. I finally got bare empty sheds but it’s not opened yet as we have strict quarantine rules re post in our house. Hope it lives up to expectations...

[coline33]

"Bare Empty Sheds" gives the insight into Clapham depot by a member of the staff.   Very interesting reading.   I leave my mail on the mat for 3 days before carefully picking up and opening with a knife and allowing my wife to remove the contents without touching the envelope/packaging which goes straight into the wheelie bins.  

 

Looking at a side view of the Broadway Battleship, it is the Brill mech and truck side that is definitively the best for Cissie.   Now if you use the Brill on the LUT car then discard the truck sides and renumber the car 395 as that car was fitted with monomotor inside bearing trucks as an experiment from build until LPTB days.

[wainwright1]

Hi Tony.

 

Any progress since your last post ?

 

All the best and stay well.

Ray

[Andy Reichert]

On 23/04/2020 at 01:00, coline33 said:

Tony. Sunderland 100.   If your mech came from the Bachmann Brill then you could reinsert those truck sides.   There really is not a great deal of difference that would be noticeable.   After all Spencer went to the States to get ideas and as Cissie is a Feltham-ised version of New York Railway's Broadway Battleship which was probably on Brills anyway!   Colin.

 

 

I understood the B'way Battleships were double decked Hedley Doyles stepless streetcars like this single decker PE version.  I think the truck sides are clear enough to see on this HO scale model.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

[coline33]

Yes, Andy, the 'Battleship' NY Railways 6000 was their only DD version of their batch of 'stepless' cars to assist the fashion business in promoting the hobble skirt!!!   The PE is my favourite North American interurban and I had the opportunity to spend a day as conductor to Jedd.   If I had not then there would have been no service that day for the stream of people who came to the Orange Empire.   When Jedd turned the trolleys, I had to do the Q&A session with the passengers!   As a thank you for being correct with the months and years in my answers, I was allowed to drive the car into the barn.   Jedd's last comments were that he could have added the days!!!   My PE interest started at the age of 8 seeing the three big 'Red' car train passing through the streets of Hollywood as the introduction to the Saturday morning children's cinema shows.   Little did I know then that I would be walking along that street!   The greatest surprise was seeing the tracks in the street outside the Union station when I went to the market opposite.   Then I saw that film "Who framed Peter Rabbit"!!! 

[Andy Reichert]

It's such a shame that the Orange Empire Railway Museum didn't/doesn't have the funding sources that Crich has. They had a lot of stuff and a team of enthusiastic and skilled renovating volunteer. But much of it has deteriorated. over the years.

 

But to get at least partly back in topic . . .

 

 

I don't know if you saw when you were there, but the rescued  under frame of one of the PE or LARY transfer tables was stored there.  I'll have to sort through a lot of old pictures to discover which way up it is.

 

Andy

[coline33]

Andy, I spent my time between journeys going out into the desert and seeing what was in the dumps!   Seeing the Hill of Howth car and driving a LARS PCC on the NG circuit.   I must admit I found more interest in the Seashore's dumps!   A Feltham between NYC subway cars!!!   Colin.   

[thirty2a]

Sorry guys I have been updating some other projects thanks for the info 

[coline33]

It is surprising what we south Londoners get up in lock-down!!!   The amount of enquiries on railway and tramway aspects I received from the start certainly delayed doing what modelling arrears I had with my 009 "East Quay" let alone the mammoth backlog of London tramway items I still have to do.   Having to replenish supplies of materials then became a factor finding that some crucial items were on order but still not received by retailers.   Having clearly helped some to determine their way ahead with modelling and now coming to the end of my NG work, I am returning to the London trams.   I am very grateful to those who made enquiries as it brought a load of 'modelling history' out of my loft!!!   Out came unopened Tower E/1 kits plus several part built ones.   My tram enquirers all bought this Tower kit which is still available on Ebay whilst the manufacturer is still sorting out his lock-down problems both on the continent and here!   So I am going to concentrate on this kit and how to go about changing what is a Walthamstow 2nd series E/1 batch of only nine cars into the hundreds of LPTB/LTE E/1 design from LCC (1st and 2nd series), Croydon, East Ham and Walthamstow 1st series plus those that were rehabilitated by LPTB.   

 

The title 'Brixton Hill tram depot' is a very appropriate heading as all but the East Hammers have been housed in this depot.   So I will update on my progress here.   Apart from having the Tower E/1 kit whether open or enclosed version, it will be handy to have the Alphagraphix E/1 and Rehab card kit packs to hand.   Although these are for 7mm. they are very useful for printing to 4mm. scale for certain parts to improve the Tower parts particularly the interior detail and seat coverings.   I am not sure if these Alphagraphic kits are still available from the manufacturer or are to be found secondhand - but they are useful!   So I am making a start and hope it will not be too long before I illustrate what I have done including my system of 'plug' mechs to keep the overall cost per car down.

[coline33]

I mentioned my 'plug' mech system, so I start with the first Tower E/1 enclosed version I built when the kit was first released.   I attach a view of it with a 'plug' mech produced for the Walthamstow 2nd series cars where the truck sides are equal as for these nine cars.   This 'plug' is just as capable of carrying a BEC white-metal E/1 so can be interchangeable between kits.   If anyone is interested in the 'plug' dimensions and assembly, please let me know and I will prepare a diagram.

 

The Tower E/1 kits do have some very bad faults and had David Boyle contacted me before producing the moulds then there would have been at least the correct layout of the roof details and a correct bulkhead to the lower saloon.   These will become more obvious as I relate the construction of ex-Croydon 390 and 391 plus using recycled parts from the Tower kits and secondhand models to build ex-LCC 1506 before LPTB rehabilitated it.

[wainwright1]

Hi Colin.

 

Very interesting, but I think that you need your own blog for this, so we can follow all the details in a logical way, and look it up quickly when required.

 

All the best

Ray

[coline33]

Thanks, Ray.   A lot of thought went into this.   If I did a separate thread on RMweb then I would be open to accusations that I should have done this on the T&LRS Facebook when I was asked decades ago when it was first opened.   Or I should do it on both!   Lock-down has caused me to be on the computer far longer than before.   I am constantly doing supermarket delivery orders for two households and ordering non-food items from catalogues - alas my wife still cannot use the laptop I bought years ago to relieve me!

 

I had considered modifying the title, of a booklet Ted Oakley and I wrote decades ago, to "Improving London's Trams (models)" but I feel "Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams" best suits my available time.   So maybe the slight change in title of this thread could suffice?   Hopefully it could bring more followers.   I appreciate the logic in your appeal for which I again thank you.   Keep modelling, Colin.

[Strathwood]

Looking forward to some classes on E1 modelling, looks good to me.

 

Kevin

[wainwright1]

Hi Kevin.

 

Did I see another book of RC Riley pictures, something like Southern Steam Around South London due out from Transport Treasury soon ?

 

All the best

Ray

[Strathwood]

Off topic but yes its already on our website and available.

 

Kevin

 

Now back to some leisure for me come on folks bring on the LT/LUT tram show, please.

 

 

[coline33]

Thanks for the extension in this thread's title.   For the present let us see how things go.   Gaugemaster have completed my material orders so I can now start mixing Humbrol 69 Yellow with either Humbrol 103 Cream or 22 White.   LPTB did not want to show any past alliances in a new standard livery for tramcars despite having a preference to the last LCC style.   A slightly brighter red was chosen (I use Humbrol 19) and a deeper cream introduced.   Humbrol used to offer a good likeness but withdrew it when it reviewed all its colours years ago.   The 103 cream is too thin for my liking and being used to using Humbrol enamel I wish to keep to this.   So more as I proceed.

 

On the point of colours, there is/was a Chiswick Bus Red (the bus side continued to use the LGOC paint style well into LPTB period) which is slightly duller that 19 Red.   My first Feltham 2131 was built from the first castings of the new moulds for BEC Kit No.14 from which the instructions were based.   It was painted in a 'thinner' red which worried me when compared with the models of others using the 19 Red.   A discussion with Richard Elliott (LTE's last Technical Officer, Trams) revealed how the standard LT red changed hue between wooden and metal surfaces,   On wooden bodied cars the extent depended on the number of varnishes given, the red darkening.   On metal bodies the red lightened through wear and tear.   Richard's final comment on my 2131 was "that is the state they came into CRD!!!".   So my view that the changes in red seen in colour photos was down to the film used and process method were somewhat dispelled!

 

I attach a view of 2131 when first built in the 1960s and then some 50 years later on "West Croydon".   It has never been altered and although retired to the reserve fleet it still gives a lovely controlled run.   Of all Feltham kit and RTR models, BEC Kit No.14 is best for body detail and the re-release of the kit may well come about.   With small scale model trams being viewed more from above, Richard Elliott provided Frank Vescoe with a ladder to get the full roof detail off MET 355 when at Clapham Museum.

 

I hope the style of combining modelling detail with a touch of both real time and modelling history will make this more interesting to all.

[coline33]

LT/LUT trams, Brixton Hill depot???   Well there is a weird connection through fate!   Just look (attached) at what I found in the loft!   Prior to the first outing of John Clarke's "West Croydon" layout to the Model Tramways Festival of 2001, I had assessed that three cars would be needed to operate each of services 7 and 30 along Tamworth Road from Reeves Corner (fiddle yard) to the West Croydon terminus.   Having only ex-SMET 47S for the 7, I looked to doing the Alphagraphix Type T card kit to take the place of the Type U cars that were used.   Before I got any further, I bought two scratch-built cars, one U and the other WT and changed their 57 service boards for the Sutton line.   Now almost two decades later I will renovated the Type T assemblies, remove the lower deck seating and prepare a 'plug system' mech.   So hope to revert more on this as things proceed.

 

But that brings me on to that weird connection in real time.   Had LPTB not have had to move the roof stations of the traverser halls of Streatham depot further apart for the extra overhang of a Feltham when moved sideways on the traverser, then the remaining Type Ts and snowplough/vacuum cleaner car 148 would have gone to Brixton Hill for scrapping.   With Hendon and Fulwell tram-less in December 1936, the remaining cars at Hanwell, that were not destined for Streatham, could only go south side for scrapping.   To permit the mentioned rebuilding of Streatham depot, BH had to return to being an operational depot.   So by autumn of 1936 George Cohen had cleared BH of the backlog of stored and redundant cars.   With the planned south side trolleybus conversions for 1937 came the need for another scrap-yard for Cohens.   The trackwork entry from Mitcham Road into Aurelia Road in West Thornton was altered and the depot, often referred to as Mitcham, took on a new role and the new title of LPTB's Croydon depot.   The name change was for the Cohen's men's sake when their work was transferred from BH, by alerting them not to get off the southbound 30 tram until Mitcham Common was passed which meant they had crossed into the County Borough of Croydon.   Today across the Mitcham Road facing Aurelia Road is Therapia Lane and its tram depot.   The structure of LPTB's Croydon depot was still in existence when Croydon Tramlink built its depot but the former has now been levelled and housing built on site.   So for a while West Thornton had two tram depot structures.   (My conservatory was built by a firm that occupied the Aurelia Road depot.)  

 

The following autumn the Croydon depot roof started leaking and Cohen's men complained so LPTB having ceased using Purley depot in September 1937, moved the south side scrap yard there and sold Croydon depot.   Purley then became an overflow scrapping point for ex-MET Types so these would have passed BH on their way from the Kingsway Subway.   After WW2 Purley had to be cleared to make way as a temporary CRD annex repainting the backlog of cars, the cars for scrap being removed to join those now being scrapped at BH.   With five metal Felthams to dismantle in December 1949, Cohen's men went back to Purley to finish these and on 1st January 1950 it reopened as an operational depot to replace Thornton Heath depot (to which it had lost out to in 1937!).   Oh, we do go round in circles - but that is life!!! 

[coline33]

Tower E/1 kit - part 1 - the start.   When I open a box I sort out just what parts I need.   As I will motorise, out goes the lower deck floor.   To help with weight and finish, I replace the plastic stair parts by a white-metal 90 degree direct stair.   The attached view shows just those parts needed - some come in duplicate.   The existence of the lower deck seat backs is purely to provide material to form into any other parts such as 'used ticket boxes'.   The redundant parts go straight into the plastic recycle bin.

 

In the bottom left hand corner is a sprue that you may not find in the box.   When Brian Robinson acquired the Tower Trams range from David Boyle, he produced for me this sprue containing the reversed conductor's window part to balance that in the kit (which only faces one way) plus different types of plough carrier and headlamps.   Also included are platform fittings and a low height dash.   There is a three code designation box and a East Ham service number box as well.   With Brian not due back into the UK until next month he may face quarantine or delay, so if you are unable to purchase the sprue, KW Trams do have many of these items (but not that conductor's window) in white-metal.

 

The following parts in this series will take individual kit parts and show how I go about accepting or modifying them.   All comments on my writings are welcome especially if there are easier ways to improve them!!!

[thirty2a]

Colin,

as always you spoil us with info and detail, somewhere I have pictures of west Croydon some tears ago at Kew steam museum, might have been in the early years of the layout, I will try to dig them out..

I have a partial completed and a broken Tower kit, might come in useful for filling up the depot  at some point.

Tony

[thirty2a]

Colin,

found a couple from Croydon exhibition in 2015