Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[wainwright1]

Hi Colin.

 

When you say 'The redundant parts go straight into the plastic recycle bin.' I hope that you mean the spare parts box ?

 

Modellers never through spare mouldings away.

 

Looking forward to the next part.

 

All the best

Ray

[thirty2a]

may be of interest, picture inside Holloway bus garage in 2016, tram tracks just visible

[coline33]

Interesting view of Holloway depot - when did they anticipate the trams returning???   At least the planned extension of the Cross River Tram to Streatham could have used BH!   Thanks for the views of WC in 2015, that is John Clarke you caught in the corner so I am passing it on to him.   What no views of me!!!

 

Ray, the amount of Tower parts I literally throw away would overwhelm my spares box and I would never have any further use for them anyway!   Next part will be about the roof sprue.

[thirty2a]

17 hours ago, coline33 said:

What no views of me!!!

Colin, I have yet to find all my pics of WC in action, I know I have seen it quite a few times over the years so ...

17 hours ago, coline33 said:

Interesting view of Holloway depot - when did they anticipate the trams returning???

if only they hadn't gone, finally got round to do some reading Bare Empty sheds, what a fascinating insight, I like the way it's written actually, full of little nuggets, like a tram painted Orange! and driving no1 with Stan Collins down Brixton Hill after it's last day in service. For those of us who weren't lucky enough  to have seen the first generation of London trams, these little details are invaluable, which is also why we enjoy your input on this thread so much.

thanks as ever Colin.

Tony

[coline33]

Thanks, Tony, I knew you would enjoy "Bare Empty Sheds" being from someone who was there at the time like recalling Stan Collins life in "The Wheels Used to Talk to Us".   There some interesting livery experiments and one that alas did not reach BH was the LPTB experiments with the Feltham cab roof colour on the ex-MET ones whilst still in north London which were not adopted and original colour restored before coming south side.

 

Now an update on my Type T renovation.   In looking at motorising, I intend to use my 'plug system' but for this car it will be a one-off due to the construction method I used for the platform frames.   Then when it comes to Brill 22E trucks they are (and not just for London) of 4' w/b and the available trucksides are for this.   However, the current shortest RTR bogie mechs are for 4'6" which will cause conflict with a correct sized dog guard.   Whilst scratch-building a BEC style mech or even a chassis with a central motor with flexible drive seems the only solution at present, I find on enquiry that it is in the mind of a commercial producer to develop such a motor bogie.   So whilst I am awaiting confirmation of this and the effect on affixing to my lower deck, I am holding off.   Once I see the way ahead I will revert as to how I am going to proceed.

[thirty2a]

52 minutes ago, coline33 said:

"The Wheels Used to Talk to Us".

Got it and love it, especially as I worked at BN for some years and its on the site of Telford Ave.

55 minutes ago, coline33 said:

However, the current shortest RTR bogie mechs are for 4'6"

is it not possible to 'Fettle' it ?

 

 

[coline33]

Tony, fettling an existing chassis and creating a new mould is one of the options but currently confirmation is awaited on the production of a completely new such motor bogie.

 

Ray, having put Type T on hold I have delved into my spares boxes looking for a replacement to do whilst paint/glue sets on forthcoming Tower cars.   I attach a view of some of the parts cut and awaiting cutting to continue to produce a second series E/1.   Yes, it is from one of two 7mm. scale card kit packs by Alphagraphix.   I understand that these two packs have not been available for some two decades but a 'Rehab' conversion pack (the second one) is currently available in the '2nd' section of the KW Trams website.   Last century I purchased both packs and scanned and printed them to 4mm. scale as an experiment.   My testing of assembling the parts went well but other duties then intervened and all went into the spares department without being strengthened.   However, with restarting the Tower E/1 construction, I have used some of the internal printed detail in the card kit to line the interior of certain Tower parts which will appear in the relevant texts.   So if anyone is taken by this method then I do recommend looking out for any secondhand and purchasing the main card kit at least.   The 'Rehab' pack is of limited use without the main pack unless you are intent on having an E/1R which I will cover in due course.

[thirty2a]

I think I have a 4mm Alphagraphix kit somewhere.. might dig it out ..

Colin, when are we going to see some track with a tram on it?

[coline33]

There have been 4mm. scale card kits for Bluebell in MET livery, Type T in LUT livery, West Ham 4 wheel balcony in LPTB livery and Class HR/2 in LTE livery.   As I have a photo of a Type U in LUT livery built from a card kit, I very much would like to know if it was in the Alphagraphix 4mm. range?   It is one that I would like to have.    As to track, well all the sections for a double tracked oval just await painting, rail threading, detailing the conduit hatches, etc., fixing to the board and wiring up.   Next week is supposed to be blazing hot so I may well gravitate to the garage to work on it.   In the meantime, here is some more from my spares boxes which will form the platforms for a Tower kit to give E/1 1506 prior to its rehabilitation in 1936.   I do have probably the most complete histories of individual London electric trams from build to end.  So if anyone is modelling a specific car just let me know the number and if relevant the pre-1933 system.

[Strathwood]

This is great stuff please keep it up for us new boys in class.

 

Kevin

[wainwright1]

18 hours ago, coline33 said:

There have been 4mm. scale card kits for Bluebell in MET livery, Type T in LUT livery, West Ham 4 wheel balcony in LPTB livery and Class HR/2 in LTE livery.   As I have a photo of a Type U in LUT livery built from a card kit, I very much would like to know if it was in the Alphagraphix 4mm. range?   It is one that I would like to have.    As to track, well all the sections for a double tracked oval just await painting, rail threading, detailing the conduit hatches, etc., fixing to the board and wiring up.   Next week is supposed to be blazing hot so I may well gravitate to the garage to work on it.   In the meantime, here is some more from my spares boxes which will form the platforms for a Tower kit to give E/1 1506 prior to its rehabilitation in 1936.   I do have probably the most complete histories of individual London electric trams from build to end.  So if anyone is modelling a specific car just let me know the number and if relevant the pre-1933 system.

 

Hi Colin.

 

I am too busy with railway modelling to do any tramway modelling at the moment, but trying to work out the best way to archive your postings on trams for quick easy future reference.

 

I was contemplating a small  layout which might incorporate a working tramway circuit, but operate in a night time mode and was wondering if anyone had attempted a layout with illuminated trams. This would be set in south east London and I know that they did not appear in the area to a great degree, but I thought that a couple of motorised Feltham's would make a good starting point. The first item would be working headlamps, but of course Corgie put their body securing screws behind the dummy headlamps just to be helpful. The blind boxes might be possible, but has anyone tried to illuminate the inside of the cabins ? I know that the headroom is very small, but with the new LED strip lights it might be possible ?

 

All the best

Ray

[thirty2a]

Hi Ray, I did attempt to light up my trusty test bed Feltham on a few occasions but never really got it working satisfactory and yes those screw locations are a pain. Might have another go at some point now that the layouts are in some working order I’m drawn to the trams ..

Tony 

[thirty2a]

19 hours ago, coline33 said:

  As to track, well all the sections for a double tracked oval just await painting, rail threading, detailing the conduit hatches, etc., fixing to the board

All round to Colins after lockdown for some running time ...

Tony 

[Engineer]

In response to the earlier note about illumination, I did some encouraging experiments many years ago.  My tramway interests started when in single figures, having been told by parents about their tram journeys and I was taken around London to see relevant places and surviving evidence.  My father and I agreed that the most interesting thing to create with a tram model was scenes to represent memorable locations [dioramas] with illumination at night, and if there was any movement, lights would have to go out at gaps in the conduit.  We wanted to achieve this with the first kit we obtained, a Bec E/1 and workable illumination wasn't possible in those

times, nor was there a satisfactory mechanism.  The latter had to wait until I was able to do the development work many years later and, having achieved this, lighting development began but I had to stop practical work before reaching a satisfactory solution.
Headlight using fibre

Lighting experimentally fitted to part-built models but with filament lamps and diffusers, and trial of centre-rail pick-up on test track.

 

 

[thirty2a]

Now that’s very nice work Like that a lot 

Edited June 20, 2020 by thirty2a

[coline33]

Engineer's LUT top covered car looks great, the illumination shows up those ducts through which the upper deck sweepings went out.

 

Tony, I agree the headlamp screw fixing on the OOC/Atlas Feltham is a problem but not just to have a working headlamp for pre-WW2 days but also having to alter the fitting to add the shields for wartime and post-war periods.

 

I hope no one thinks I am going to give a Masterclass like those in Model Rail!!!   All I shall do is draw to attention those aspects to consider when using each part and the decisions that have to be made.   I am sure that you all are better modellers than I.   The basic reason that I have modelled trams in 4mm. scale is not the cars themselves but to present a layout where the operation can be modelledas with "West Croydon".   It was the well managed operation of the London tram system, despite its neglect, that will always stand out from my youth with the 16/18.   

[coline33]

Tower E/1 kit - part 2 - the roof.   With small scale modelling we tend to be looking down on roofs!   So the BEC and ABS kits made the roof detail to be of importance.   Alas I found that David Brewer had assessed the detail from the Roche drawing when he introduced his new range of plastic kits when he could have copied that on the BEC E/1 which had come from photographs.   (The roof of the subsequent Feltham kit followed that of the BEC kit.)   Here in the view I use the roof I have made from the Alphagraphix card kit (scaled down from 7mm.) as the layout for the trolley planks and walkways (for double trolleys) plus the lamp covers.   Omitted are the lightning arrestor boxes which are very small and trolley hooks, for the latter it is best to follow a prototype car.   As can be seen the Tower roof has twelve lamp covers but not in the correct location so it is a question of 1) accepting it, 2) filing off the covers and trolley pole locations and making replacements discs, 3) using the Alphagraphix roof, or 4) scratch-building a new roof.   I must admit that I went for 1) for 2054 but for 1506 I will go for 3) as the base and build up the individual covers, placing the single trolley plank centrally.   Mind you I might well change further when it comes to building 390 and 391!   Now on to the trolley pole locations.   Those on the Tower roof are wrong for the E/1 generally so with the lack of a clear photo of the roof of the nine ex-Walthamstows (usually found in Embankment views taken from the Thames bridges!) cannot be ruled out for 2054-2061.   Otherwise for the E/1 family, single and double trolleys were centrally located.   Naturally the trolley plank for a single trolley was along the lengthwise centre line with the double trolleys in line with each other as shown.   1), 2), 3) or 4), the decision is yours as to how you feel best to improve it for your needs.

 

In the view I show how I added the ceiling detail from the Alphagraphix card kit plus my experiments in using the redundant lower saloon single seats for the larger type of ticket box that was introduced by LPTB on some cars - just a thought!

 

I trust this 'food for thought' approach suits and is welcome as this is the manner in which I intend to continue.           

[thirty2a]

Thanks as ever Colin, and people said all London trams looked the  same, you prove that as with most things there is some considerable difference to be had. I will need a fair few cars for the layout but as yet not made any inroads as to making them...

[thirty2a]

Re visiting streatham and Clapham tramways and operation tram away I have found a couple of interesting views of traverser and interior tram depot‘s.  so nice to re read books.

[coline33]

Tower E/1 kit - part 3 - the upper ends.   In part 2 any changes to the roof should await this stage where it is vital to decide on which E/1 variant is to be modelled.   The ex-LCC first series had single trolleys except for 1366-9, 1371-2, 1374-1400 which had double trolleys as per the roof layout shown.   It was not until after LPTB took over that the domed roof cars (1103, 1260, 1370 and 1373) and those also with inset destination displays came with the "Rehabilitation " programme.   However, the "Rehabs" will be the subject of another series altogether.

 

I have taken two attached views of my upgrading.   From the first (view b) can be seen the work required to fashion the ends to suit the variants.  From left to right are 1) the unchanged end for cars 375-399 and 2042-2061.   The middle end has been altered for cars 81-100 and 1727-1851, the former will eventually require a 'East Ham' box fitted.   That on the right is altered for cars 751-1426 and 1477-1676.   I found that the large stencil box was easily cut out with a blading following the top and side edges of the box from behind.   For the 'East Ham' box it could be produced by removing the lower half of the large stencil box.

 

The second (view c) shows the method I used to give the framed opening vent windows first drawn out on paper, glazed area removed and glued to the inside.   In cutting round the outline I left the top part as a tag to assist in positioning when glued.   Again from left to right, the first end shows the tag left whilst drying and the second after being cut off.   The third shows the side vent window 'framed' whilst the remaining two show the middle vent window.   Like for the side vent windows, the frame outline includes the top, side and bottom window bar positions and is cut out and affixed in the same way.   Once dry and the tag removed, then the window bar can be added at the bottom of the vent window frame as shown.   The first two ends have the unaltered incorrect shaped destination boxes.   It is a pity that they were moulded to the bottom of the end when in reality that was no so but will have to be accepted if major surgery is to be avoided.   The boxes on the third and fourth ends have had their top inset areas filed flat and card inserted across to give the best appearance of the standard wooden box.   To this can be added the 'three code' discs if on the chosen prototype.   The box on the fifth one has had that inset panel filed to taper upwards and card affixed across it while the remainder of the box has be filed to taper downwards until there is no ridge to give the K-ray style of metal destination box also found as replacements on the E/1 family.   To finish the K-ray box all that is need is a careful paint but painting will be a later subject.

 

I have deliberately ignored Classes ME/1 and ME/3 as these bodies rebuilt from Class M cars have bodywork dimensions slightly different to the E/1s.   I hope the above helps in deciding which car to build - if still in doubt do not hesitate to ask, only too happy to help.  

[Philou]

Hello tramophiles (though my leanings are towards trolleybuses),

 

May I interject? During lockdown I have been wiring up semaphore signals (old Ratio ones) and I came across some really really small LEDs (04x02 thousands of inches or 1.00mm x 0.5mm if you prefer) that are available in all colours. I went for yellow and white, though the white are too bright for me. Yellow is probably the better colour for your trams to better imitate low wattage bulbs. My yellow ones came with 1kohm resistors (you have to do the soldering) which allows them to be used at 12v - apparently. I have not used such a voltage but kept it low for testing purposes.

 

Anyway, here are a few photos showing the bulbs - if they're of any use to you. The first is just for sizing compared to a cocktail stick and an 00 scale signal:

 

 

Next the yellow bulb lit:

 

 

Now the white one - it is bright!

 

 

and a yellow one fitted into a signal oil-lamp. It fitted perfectly into a 1.3mm hole and then secured by a drop of cyano glue:

 

 

They're available via Amazon - type in 0402 LED and it should take you there.

 

Cheers and good luck with your depots,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

[coline33]

Yes, I have been following you on SI Modelling and like the work you have been doing on the signals - great.   I recognised the Ratio basis from which I have loved scratch-building specific signals.   Thanks for recommending Yellow which as you know from trolleybuses is often the colour that white upper deck ceilings go from the effects of smoking.   I can always remember on the RT buses on the 64 that replaced the 630, how their ceiling got yellower and on wet days the nicotine was dripping from them.  

 

If you ever lean to the right so away from trolleybuses then I hope you will be on trams!!!   All the best, Colin.   

 

 

[thirty2a]

White lights always seem to bright in model form to me unless modelling something really modern.

I have seen some trolleybus layouts .. Best not to there .

Colin you must have an enormous fleet of trams now might have to build a bigger depot 

 

[coline33]

Tower E/1 kit -part 4 - the upper deck floor.   The only extra I have done with this part is to add the lower deck ceiling detail to the underside of the floor as seen in the attached photo.   In constructing the seats as per instructions, I have not attempted to use the scaled down seat covers from the Alphagraphix E/1 card kit as the plastic was in brown.   However, with grey plastic now being used then either paint them and the stairwell partitions/doors brown or use scaled down pieces from the kit.   The original ceilings in the "Rehabs" were replaced by large board panels and these can be produced by scaling down the appropriate parts in the Alphagraphix "Rehab" card kit - one is still available second-hand from KW Trams.

[Philou]

@coline33 Thanks for the thumbs up over on the Ratio signal thread - I spotted you there! Having come across the tram depot thread once more, I thought perhaps my findings may have been of use to you all - particularly as I saw there was an issue of a screw being in the wrong place and as these LEDs are so small, I thought that there might have just been enough room to squeeze one in!

 

I DO have an unfinished whitemetal tram kit in my box of bitsa - I don't recall what or by whom - that requires finishing, though I shall need a mechanism for it. When I bought it, the intention was to make it into a facsimile Cardiff CCT one, though it would have needed some work as the Cardiff ones were specially constructed with lowered saloons and upper decks to allow them to pass underneath all the railway bridges in Cardiff. No such adaptation was required for the trolleybuses as the overhead was simply moved to one side to achieve the permitted BoT clearance.

 

I have three Cardiff trolleybuses (Original Omnibus ones) that I want to modify with working poles (have the poles, just need the courage to do them) - not quite ready to come over to the dark side - yet!!

 

I noted above too, that a mention was made regarding Tarry blocks. Due to the above mentioned Cardiff railway bridges and being impossible to lower the surfacing due to the depth of the sewers below, often during heavy rainfall, the gullies would backwash, flooding the road surface under the bridges, causing the blocks to break loose and float on the surface of the water, causing ALL traffic to come to a halt. The problem was never resolved until many years later when the tram rails were inset into concrete and the road both sides tarmacked.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip