F4/F5 made from a GWR 0-4-2 motor trouble

[gobbler]

Hi all.....,,

 

I model the GER eastern region upto 1958. I've always wanted the F4/F5 2-4-2 "Gobbler". I've found this book:-

 

So reading the destructions it says I need a 14xx GWR 0-4-2. So I got one.

It doesn't run unless I touch one of the wires on the "phosphor bronze " bit on the top as in the picture below

 

What bit is missing? I suspect that when I took the body off (upside down) the motor came out and that there is a spring bit on the bottom half of the motor. I have a he spring but something else may have "pinged" off.

 

Also how is the motor fitted? I get the double "D" motor connector to the gear box.

There are two pips on top of the chassis casting, which appear to be lugs on which the wide "spade" looking bit, near to where my wire is touching "hang off"

 

Can anyone help me??

 

Cheers

 

Scott

Edited April 26, 2018 by gobbler

[DCB]

There is a spring between the insulated side of the chassis and the motor brush holder with the long spindle. That is working OK.

Your problem is the live side of the chassis. All the wheels are rim insulated and pickups are plungers with tiny springs.  These  will have failed and/ or stuck in by now, Lets face it they are 30 years old now and well past their chuck away by date. They are inserted in the chassis block on the live side and the bronze pick up strip on the insulated side.  They slip out when the chassis bottom is disturbed, at least one of your insulated side ones is working. It is a great idea in theory,   Sadly even when new these were not compatible with live frog points as when you drive over an insulator and into a live frog there is a dead short between one wheel and another on the same side, one -Ve and one +ve.  I have around 6 dead Airfix 14XX in my scrap box and not enough pickups to make one good chassis.  Phospher broonze strips is a suitable bodge.

 

Personally I would find a decent chassis as a basis, the Hornby and Dapol Chassis is pretty dire and the Hattons too nice to butcher. Best to shorten a Bachmann or Hornby 0-6-0 or get a brass 14XX chassis with a proper motor gearbox.

Edited April 26, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Quarryscapes]

might be possible to replace the pickup springs with sprung buffer springs? alternatively the springs from gibson plungers may be available separately?

[Il Grifone]

If you try to convert a GWR engine to an LNER one, it's obvious she is going to object and throw a tantrum!  

 

Seriously this Airfix chassis is a disaster. Apart from the aforementioned pickup springs, the plastic axle gear strips its teeth at the drop of a hat.

 

I'm trying to fit Romford gears to mine. Branchlines used to do a brass replacement. It's still listed but as not available.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Il Grifone

[Dunsignalling]

There is a spring between the insulated side of the chassis and the motor brush holder with the long spindle. That is working OK.

Your problem is the live side of the chassis. All the wheels are rim insulated and pickups are plungers with tiny springs.  These  will have failed and/ or stuck in by now, Lets face it they are 30 years old now and well past their chuck away by date. They are inserted in the chassis block on the live side and the bronze pick up strip on the insulated side.  They slip out when the chassis bottom is disturbed, at least one of your insulated side ones is working. It is a great idea in theory,   Sadly even when new these were not compatible with live frog points as when you drive over an insulator and into a live frog there is a dead short between one wheel and another on the same side, one -Ve and one +ve.  I have around 6 dead Airfix 14XX in my scrap box and not enough pickups to make one good chassis.  Phospher broonze strips is a suitable bodge.

 

Personally I would find a decent chassis as a basis, the Hornby and Dapol Chassis is pretty dire and the Hattons too nice to butcher. Best to shorten a Bachmann or Hornby 0-6-0 or get a brass 14XX chassis with a proper motor gearbox.

In my experience, the Dapol chassis is pretty good once you tame the over-enthusiastic spring on the trailing axle.

 

Mine has a bunker-full of lead and I got rid of the traction tyres by fitting a plain wheelset from a dead Airfix 14xx. She now runs very nicely, though not as well as the DJM/Hatton's example that has joined the roster more recently.

 

John

Edited April 27, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

While the concept of this book is admirable, events have rather overtaken its projects, for all but those who would always rather make it than buy it. The cover picture of an L1 project alone...

 

The flood of OO RTR since its publication now offers better alternatives in medium sized wheel four coupled mechanisms, than the horribly compromised layout resulting from the 14xx design. Simplest option but likely to cost, the L&Y class 5 2-4-2T from Bachmann. The Adams 4-4-2T from both Hornby and Oxford would be what I would look at, the Oxford probably available for least money. A small front end shortening and provision of a pony truck instead of the bogie would be the mechanism sorted. A matching shortening of the boiler behind the smokebox, reduces the overall body length. By virtue of being a little old engine, aplique panels for the tankside- cab-bunker sides and ends should effectively cover up the Adamsness, and make it look like a gobbler ex-Stratford.

[gobbler]

Cheers for the info chaps,

 

I've go qualms about building the body, as on my N7 using a Hornby J83 in one of my links below.

 

I'm going to try and get the wee beastie running as my budget is limited at the best of times.

 

Mr Grifone......tut. tut..... (LOL) Making it GER over GWR can only make better (not that I'm GER biased.........Well....... I am and if anyone says anything different, I'm going to tell my mum on you. So there!!)

 

I'm going to see if I can craft some wire spring pick ups on the wheels, got nothing to loose.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[The Johnster]

0-4-2 chassis are problematic to start with, and the old Airfix one was a well intentioned failure.  The fundamental problem is that the chassis tends to balance on the trailing drivers on anything but absolutely dead level track, and the traction tyre makes this feature worse; pick up is spectacularly unreliable.  Add the sprung pickups, ball bearings in plunger holders which fail as soon as the least amount of crud gets into the bearings and plungers and seizes them up, then when you investigate the springs fly off into orbit, and the recipe for a poor runner is guaranteed. 

 

A 2-4-2 chassis should be better to start with, being naturally better balanced and having an additional pair of pick ups.   You may do better looking at bodging up an 0-4-4 such as the Hornby H, or investigating chassis kits.  Or have a look at the next version of the Hornby 0-4-2 chassis, which should be a little better than the last one, which ran into balancing problems.

[gobbler]

Cheers guys

 

Have managed to get it running-ish. The problem was the top commutator spring, have tweaked this.

 

Down side is, as soon as I put anything on it haul, it mostly just wheel spins. Both drivers are metal and no rubber bands on the wheels are evident. Its going to need more weight for it to get traction, but where I'll put it is going to be another mystery....

 

Cheers again

 

Scott

Edited April 27, 2018 by gobbler

[Il Grifone]

Cheers guys

 

Have managed to get it running-ish. The problem was the top commutator spring, have tweaked this.

 

Down side is, as soon as I put anything on it haul, it mostly just wheel spins. Both drivers are metal and no rubber bands on the wheels are evident. Its going to need more weight for it to get traction, but where I'll put it is going to be another mystery....

 

Cheers again

 

Scott

 

Without the traction tyres, she won't pull the skin off a rice pudding. In fairness the expected train was at most a couple of trailer cars. The Airfix cars are light and free running and I doubt they even considered K's whitemetal kit, which weighs a ton (especially if you have an early one with a metal roof).

 

A traction tyre on the centre axle is always going to be a problem unless the axle is sprung and putting it on an outer axle will cause pickup problems.

[gobbler]

Rightio chaps......

 

Hornby's Nellie, What other locos used the same chassis?

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Down side is, as soon as I put anything on it haul, it mostly just wheel spins. Both drivers are metal and no rubber bands on the wheels are evident. Its going to need more weight for it to get traction, but where I'll put it is going to be another mystery...

 Since it is going to become a 2-4-2T, the location for the necessary weight is at the 'new end' over the carrying wheel you need to add. That should enable putting the centre of balance between the coupled wheels, and if the total weight of the model is 250g and more, it will pull an adequate load without traction tyres provided the carrying wheels are free running. Pick up will improve too as the coued wheels will be firmly on the rails.

 

The experiment to perform is to add weight to the front end of the chassis to achieve a balance point as near the middle of the coupled wheelbase as possible, and then assess the traction. If that is adequate, then that weight needs to be incorporated in the same position in the bodywork of the finished model. Cunning stuff like using brass or whitemetal fittings to supply weight in the right place is helpful if space is tight, and possibly even building much of the new construction in metal.

[Izzy]

Hi Scott,

 

A suggestion. You're a bit of a wizz with plasticard going by your great coach thread, so why not build an F4/F5 chassis using it and fit the wheels/motor out of the Airfix 14xx? The 14xx wheels are about the same general size, 5'-2"/3'-8" viz 5'4"/3'9", so all you would need would be another set of carry wheels. along with some brass top hat axle bearings. Nile has built a F4/F5 using printed parts for both body and chassis (can't find the thread at present) and I can't see any reason why plasticard couldn't be used instead. Indeed I have done it myself in the distant past - simple motorization of Airfix plastic kit locos. You'd have to alter the F4/F5 wheelbase to suit since it's 7'6" x 8'-0" x 7'6" and the 14xx is 7'4" x 8'2", but I guess you would have already decided to work with the compromise needed, unless you got/made up some replacement etched rods (Gibson perhaps?).

 

While weight is needed to give a bit of traction with a loco chassis it isn't absolute weight that is the most important factor, but having it in the right place. In this case it means over the drivers where the side tanks are situated so plenty of room to put some there. If you put the drive off the front axle the motor would be over them as well, and probably clear the cab. In saying this I am just not sure if the Airfix motor would fit between the wheels. It's been an awful long time since I fiddled around with OO gauge and XO4 type/size motors.

 

I say this with the thought that it might be easier trying this than seaching around for and altering another RTR chassis to get what you need. Of course you could always get a couple of K&S brass strips and use them instead of plasticard, so no bearings would be needed and you could just drop the 14xx wheels into the chassis..........

 

Just some thoughts,

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

Edited April 29, 2018 by Izzy

[gobbler]

Cheers Izzy, I've seen Niles thread using the shapeways chassis and body,

 

looked nice, but the 3D printing process is still in its infancy and looks a bit ridgy, even with all the care of sanding and layers of primer. Although I think there is a future in this printing malarkey, not for me just yet.

 

I personally like this sadistic almost infuriating quest to do things myself.

 

I hummed and harred about building my own chassis. The plastic chassis would need bearings for the driver axles, I don't know if the axles are of a standard size on this 0-4-2.

 

Scott

[Nile]

The good news is that Airfix used standard 1/8" axles on their locos. I was able to reuse the wheels on their 2P when I replaced the chassis.

The chassis for the 3d printed F4 is available separately, but I'm sure you're capable of making one yourself from thick plastic card.

[Il Grifone]

Rightio chaps......

 

Hornby's Nellie, What other locos used the same chassis?

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

According to the 'bible', their steeple cab overhead electric R.254, top tank loco R.659, diesel shunter R.559 and several versions of 'Nellie'. Starter set versions of all four were also available. Some are rare and collectable... (read expensive and best left alone!). All go like a sh bat out of hell!

Edited April 30, 2018 by Il Grifone