Filling Up Nicely OR Nicely Filling Up

[Sir TophamHatt]

It more or less means the same thing right?

Unless it's used as part of a sentance:

 

The car park is filling up nicely (makes me think people are parking nicely).

 

The car park is nicely filling up (makes me think the car park is filling up somewhat quickly).

 

Can anyone explain when you should use one or the other, or if it really doesn't matter?

 

Are there any other oddities that you hear that, on reflection, aren't quite right?

[rodent279]

I believe that if the main verb is one describing the manner the action is done, the adverb goes to the end. In this sentence, "filling" is the verb, and it's telling us the manner that the action happened, as opposed to it's duration or time. The adverb is "nicely", so that should go to the end.

 

But both versions can and will be used, and that's where English is confusing. As soon as you learn a rule, you then find there are many contradictions to it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Coloquialisms vary widely. To me, the sample statements don't convey the messages the OP proposes.

...The car park is filling up nicely (makes me think people are parking nicely)...
 

 I feel that would only be likely to be said by someone with a financial interest in seeing it occupied!

'People are parking prettily' would convey to me that drivers were positioning their vehicles neatly in the marked spaces.

 

...The car park is nicely filling up (makes me think the car park is filling up somewhat quickly)...

Again that conveys the message that the car park filling up is a good thing, most unlikely to be heard from other than the owner or operator.

'The car park is filling fast' would be the expression I would expect for a rapidly filling car park as that is from the perspective of users..

[Nearholmer]

Here is a long explanation https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/about-adjectives-and-adverbs/adverbs-and-adverb-phrases-position

 

What I find interesting about all this stuff is that, until very recently, most people would never have been taught any of it at school, but a very high percentage of native English speakers would have followed the conventions by instinct. I’d never heard of a “fronted adverbial” until my young son was taught about them at school.

 

The second version in the OP sounds to me like something that a person whose first language follows different conventions might say, and I agree with 34C about meaning; you can hear the speaker rubbing their hands together.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BoD]

What I find interesting about all this stuff is that, until very recently, most people would never have been taught any of it at school, but a very high percentage of native English speakers would have followed the conventions by instinct. I’d never heard of a “fronted adverbial” until my young son was taught about them at school.

That's because it can be easily assessed, or is that assessed easily, and if he gets it wrong he, his teachers and the school can be nicely beaten about the head, or possibly beaten about the head nicely.

[Nearholmer]

All of which may be true, but I think the real reason is that a chap called Gove has an obsession with formal grammar.

 

‘Beaten nicely’ sounds more like it to me, although how you beat someone nicely I’m far from sure.

[BoD]

You do it until they are nicely beaten.

[The Lurker]

I wondered if those in the educational establishment who were opposed to Gove thought that the best way to defeat the new teaching of grammar (which let’s face it was not taught from the 70’s onwards) was to take it to the nth degree so that it became almost incomprehensibly difficult and so dropped/not taught; in the meanwhile teaching staff and kids get caught up in the turf war. I too had never heard of a fronted adverbial until Mrs Lurker started to be a TA in year 5. She has an English A level but needed to buy a book to help with all the terms. Personally I think a basic understanding of grammar helps but endless analysis just gets in the way of practicing creative writing

[Nearholmer]

Yep, Year 5 is where you encounter the blighters.

 

And, endless analysis is a seriously good way to put children off the entire subject. Young son has a reading age about two and a half years above his actual age, and absolutely loves reading. So, he loves English as a subject? Nope. Like all his pals, he thoroughly dislikes it, because it has had all the life sucked out of it by over analysis.

 

As you say, some is good and necessary; too much is too much.

 

Rant temporarily suspended.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... Gove has an obsession with formal grammar...

 Which is a total loser concept. English was 'synthesised' from the once grammatically complex languages of the Angles, Saxons and Norse, during the two centuries when Norman French and Latin were the languages that gave the gramatically obsessed control of the levers (aka sharp and blunt instruments) of power. While that was going on what would become the Engish language went free range without benefit of Latin obsessed scholarship and emerged as the flexible instrument we know and love today. Pretty much all the complications of case inflection, gender and word ordering - and much else - were disposed of.

 

I had 'grammar' inflicted on me at school, and apart from noun, verb, ads, capitalisation, comma, full stop, sentence, paragraph, recorded speech; (probably half an hour from a competent teacher) all the attempts to fit English into the straitjacket of Latin grammatical concepts was a waste of time. (Pretty much as if chemical transformation of elements, phlogiston, the Aether, and the four humours, were taught as valid concepts in modern science courses.)

[jjb1970]

I was at school in the 70's and 80's when grammar was seen as being oh so yesterday. I have long felt that I really lost something as a result. In one sense maybe educationalists of that era were right as I have done OK career wise and I did very well at college and university. However my use of English is terrible and although I have written various technical papers and magazine articles which have been well received it requires an awful lot of effort. I tend to write a paper, spend several days correcting errors and mistakes and editing to improve how it reads then leave it for a week or two before doing another couple of passes. So I approved of the decision to teach grammar again.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...However my use of English is terrible ...

 It is not hindering you as a communicator. (You are a poster I consistently look forward to reading!)

 

What you are finding difficult I suspect is style rather than grammar. Style cannot really be taught, it is a matter of absorbing good examples by extensive reading. while also practicing by writing your own material. Doctor recommends a full course of Jane Austen, seasoned with the output of the late Alan Coren, if you have not already indulged.

[great central]

All this talk of correct grammar goes right over my head.

I'd just like to know why the 'free cash machines' don't work for me. It keeps taking the money out of my bank account?

[Nearholmer]

My view is that children should be taught enough grammar to allow them to communicate effectively, and then that the rest should be allowed to emerge by coaching their written communication skills.

 

Where I’ve seen serious problems in written English through my work, and I’ve seen a lot, the problem is almost always a breakdown of logic and clarity, which I don’t think is easily cured by an overdose (a small dose is OK) of formal grammar, but can often be cured by coaching. It almost amounts to teaching style, but not quite, and it can be done in a much more engaging way than rote learning, which is what over-formality tends to descend to.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Norm81]

Punctuation is just as important, it's the difference between:

 

"Helping your Uncle Jack, off a horse."

 

and

 

"Helping your Uncle, Jack..."

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Punctuation is just as important...

 But always subordinate to content. It would actually be your Auntie Jill, according to one all too graphic description from a woman who worked at a major racehorse stud. Apparently the stallions much prefer attention from a lady. Have a nice day...

[Classsix T]

Punctuation is just as important, it's the difference between:

 

"Helping your Uncle Jack, off a horse."

 

Jack works in an equine abattoir and requires assistance?

 

Personally I'd've left out the comma, altogether.

(If you now post an "Airplane!" stylee retort, you've earned a housepoint and my gratitude.)

 

C6T.

[Chrisr40]

Why do i keep thinking of Bruce forsythe when I see the name of this thread ?

 

Chris