Late steam/early diesels in South Welsh Valleys

[br2975]

'Johnster' referred above to the selection of loco's and workings along the Penarth Curve North - Radyr Quarry Jnc. freight only line ('City Line' post 1987).

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This was my local line when I started to taken an active interest around 1964.

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Below I've listed just a handful of workings that passed our lookout position alongside Waterhall Junction Signal Box.

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"G"  signifies an Abercynon working

"H"  denotes a Radyr working (including Radyr Van Siding, Radyr Quarry Jnc. and Radyr Jnc.) 

"L" refers to an Aberdare diagram

"T" refers to a Trehebert based diagram.

 

At the time, most steam powered workings that passed us were hauled by 34xx unsuperheated pannier tanks, 94xx panniers, 8750 panniers, together with 5101, 52xx, 56xx, 72xx tanks. Radyr also had a brace of 16xx panniers inherited from Abercynon shed when Radyr took over the Treforest Estate duties from Abercynon ( and Coke Ovens sidings). sadly, I don't recall seeing one of the 16xx tanks.

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Radyr's allocation going into 1965 (the last seven months) comprised;

 

16xx

1612,

1613

 

8750   

3644,

3717   
3728   
3784   
4650   
4679

9615  
9622  
9644  
9667  
9682    
9780

 

94xx   
8484   
9426   
9437   
9446   
9461   
9464   
9475   
9480   
9488   
 

5101   

4169   
4177 

 

61xx 
6116

 

56xx   

5613   
5633   
5673   
5689   
5691   
5692   
6606   
6648   
6650   
6654   
6657   
6672   
6689   
6661   

 

Steam, having but a year left in the area, was slowly losing out to the new English Electric Type 3s (six-eighters), which on many diagrams worked turn about with steam on some duties, others such as 9H12 stayed solidly steam..

 

9G03 Stormstown Jnc.- Barry and return

9G08 Stormstown Jnc. - Cardiff Marshalling Sidings and return

9H12 Radyr Quarry Jnc. - Creigiau Quarries - Radyr Quarry Jnc. - Dowlais Works

9H18 Albion Colliery - Cardiff Marshalling Sidings

9H17 Radyr - Grangetown and return

9H20 Radyr - Bargoed Pits - Aber Jnc. - Pengam Sidings - Cardiff Marshalling Sidngs

9H23 Radyr - Aber Jnc. - Cardiff Marshalling Sidings

9H28 Radyr - Cardiff Marshalling Sidings - Elliott Colliery

9H33 Radyr - Cardiff Marshalling Sidings - Ogilvie Colliery

9H36 Radyr - Elliott Colliery-Aber Jnc. - Cardiff Marshalling Sidngs

9H39 Radyr - Aber Jnc. - Penarth Curve North

9H51 Radyr - Severn Tunnel Jcn. and return

9J04 Radyr - Cardiff Goods - East Dock

9J24 Barry - Stormstown and return

9J26 Barry - Penrhiwfelin and return

9J30 Barry - Ocean & Taff Merthyr Collieries and return

9J33 Barry - Treforest and return

9J34 Barry Docks - Aber Jnc. or Stormstown and return

9L07 Abercwmboi - Severn Tunnel Jcn. and return

9L09 Aberdare - severn Tunnel Jcn. and return

9L10 Abercwmboi - Severn Tunnel Jnc. and return

9L12 Abercwmboi - Severn Tunnel Jcn. and return

9L13 Aberdare - Severn Tunnel Jnc. and return

9L19 Aberdare - Severn Tunnel Jcn. and return

9L20 Aberdare - Rogerstone and return

9T16 Treherbert North - Cwmparc Sidings - Barry Docks and return

9T17  Cardiff Marshalling Sidings - Cwmparc Sidings.

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Brian R

Edited May 24, 2018 by br2975

[TomJ]

Thank you so much to everyone here who has posted - and to the Railways of South Wales FB group. So much great information - thanks for helping me out.

 

I’ve started thinking about how a layout might work and I’ve posted some ideas in the layout and track design forum (can’t post link from iPhone!).

But rather than start a new thread I wondered if I could ask a couple of further questions on here?

In the late 50s/early 60s what sort of general goods traffic would be seen on a Valleys branch? I presume not coal traffic like most branches, that really would be coals to Newcastle (or Rhondda!).

 

Also were there any examples of internal NCB systems serving more than one pit, or works? To improve operating potential I thought of having two lines out of the exchange sidings? Might this have a basis in reality?

 

Thanks again.

[Andy Kirkham]

 

Also were there any examples of internal NCB systems serving more than one pit, or works? To improve operating potential I thought of having two lines out of the exchange sidings? Might this have a basis in reality?

 

 

Yes, the Mountain Ash system served Penrikyber and Deep Duffryn collieries and the Abercwmboi Phurnacite works.

[TomJ]

Thanks - that’s exactly what I was looking for

[The Johnster]

There was also the Maesteg system; 3 collieries sharing a washery at the exchange point, Nantyfyllon.  Several route miles including a section of the Port Talbot Railway which crossed the GW Llynfi Valley line on a high embankment and an arch bridge just to the north of Maesteg Castle station.  You might also include Nantgarw, newly built in the early 50s and a bit of a showcase pit, which had an adjacent coking ovens, but it was very close to the pithead.  

 

Coke is another Valleys traffic of course, and a coking oven features coal in and empties out, but coke empties in and loaded out.  The coke was mostly for South Wales steelworks, but Pensnett and Kinsgwinford in the Midlands were also supplied from the area.  The ovens tended to be in a belt towards the southern edge of the coalfield; Nantgarw has been mentioned but Bedwas, near Caerphilly, and Beddau, between Llantrisant and Pontypridd, were working well in to the 70s.  The earlier in your period, the more likely this was to have been carried in 7 plankers with coke rails, but later the big LMS hoppers as modelled by Hornby were used.

 

Limestone quarries on the southern fringe of the coalfield, to which they were geologically related, also fed the steelworks trade, while those on the northern rim fed Ebbw Vale's steelworks.  

 

Some coal traffic appeared on general merchandise trains, for factories, forges, or local gasworks, and this would be tripped by the yard pilot as a rule, but, especially in South Wales, the very intense and localised nature of the traffic meant that rules were not as predictable as elsewhere, and a perusal of a Working Time Table, or Sectional Appendix for the area at this time is fascinating reading, and will delay your layout (and anything else in your life) by several months...

 

Local domestic coal traffic was more or less non existent; no goods yards had coal staithes, though this changed very quickly once you got out of the coalfield, the southern edge of which corresponds roughly to the route of the current M4 motorway.  Coal was either obtained by land sale at the pitheads or was 'concession' coal for NCB employees, who illicitly sold it on to their neighbours and relatives.  Prior to the Beeching cuts, most stations had a goods shed, and a lot of traffic came in by rail; a friend of mine brought up in Tonyrefail, on the GW's branch from Llantrisant to Penygraig, had parents who ran a general store, which was more or less entirely supplied by rail; her uncle owned a shoe shop in Porth which was also rail dependent.  Post '63, the work, which was rapidly drying up as road transport poached the traffic, was concentrated on the larger stations, such as Pontypridd or Merthyr, with associated road delivery.  By the end of the 60s, this was more or less dead or dying.

 

Don't forget the pit props.  Most pits still used them and the miners preferred them as they would, it was said, creak and give you a few seconds warning if something bad was going to happen whereas the new steel supports just gave out without any notice.  There were large depots at Marshfield on the SWML between Cardiff and Newport, and Lletty Brongu near Bridgend, providing a useful form of loaded inward traffic to the collieries.  The props were stacked, mostly but not exclusively, vertically in 5 plankers, mostly fitted by the 60s.  Surface building work at collieries might also generate inward traffic of ordinary goods vans and opens; it does on my layout sometimes, and the opens can be used for spoil removal!

[Andy Kirkham]

 

 

Local domestic coal traffic was more or less non existent; no goods yards had coal staithes, 

 

Except here...

Aberdare station, January 1975 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[Fat Controller]

 

Except here...

Aberdare station, January 1975 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Amongst other coal depots on the western edges of the South Wales coalfield were Felin Fran (Swansea District line) , Llanelli and Burry Port- all were open until the miners' strike in the early 1980s. All brought in coal from further east, as the anthracite mined locally didn't burn well in open fires, relying on a forced draught.

[The Johnster]

 

Except here...

Aberdare station, January 1975 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

Glad I qualified 'non existent' with 'more or less'; IIRC Merthyr Plymouth Road yard had coal staithes as well.  The larger towns' yards were probably exceptions to my 'rule'; a local mining village goods yard would be unlikely to have coal facilities (but I am not saying it was impossible).  As has been mentioned, the anthracite producing western part of the coalfield 'imported' house coal from the Glamorgan or Gwent valleys, and you didn't have to go far outside the coalfield area to find the more normal coal facilities everywhere, but when the term 'Valleys' is used in connection with South Wales I assume by default a place whose geology includes coal somewhere below ground being brought to the surface.  

 

The northern rim features coal-bearing strata that 'dip' more gently than the southern, and is hence more suitable for open cast working; while deep mining has finished a lot of coal is still extracted in this way.

[Andy Kirkham]

Here's a shot just posted by Peter Brabham, that I'm sure will be appreciated https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/40930044690/in/feed

[br2975]

Here's a shot just posted by Peter Brabham, that I'm sure will be appreciated https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/40930044690/in/feed

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Outstanding find Mr. K.

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I bet the driver of the nine-fiver was a hardy type, 30 plus on and crossing such a spindly structure.

[The Stationmaster]

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Outstanding find Mr. K.

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I bet the driver of the nine-fiver was a hardy type, 30 plus on and crossing such a spindly structure.

 

And fervently hoping that it would get to the other side before it failed!

[Holmside]

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A lot depends on how you define "the valleys".

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Western & Hymeks were a common sight in South Wales, with Warships too a lesser extent.

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All three could be seen at Radyr, with Hymeks occasionally working parcels as far as Pontypridd.

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In the "Western Valleys" of Monmouthshire, Westerns worked to Ebbw Vale, and the occasional Warship.

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Hymeks were less common in the Monmouthshire Valleys, but not unheard of.

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"Six eighters" (Cl.37) started to arrive in force in 1963, so there was a two year overlap with the last steam.

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A large percentage of the "nine fivers" (Cl.14) were based at Canton, but outbased at places like Radyr, Barry, Aberdare and Llantrisant but as they arrived steam was very much on its last legs in the area.

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Cl.22 were as scarce as hen's teeth anywhere West of the Severn Tunnel. I only know of three that ever made it to Cardiff. One For servicing in 1970, and the other two got to Barry on ballast workings from Parkend in 1971

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For inspiration, both factual and illustrated, you can do no better than apply to join the FB group "Railways in South Wales" but be warned, you need to get past the administrator(s).

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But, I can be bought !

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Brian R

This is very interesting and relevant to my own endeavours concerning modelling railways of the south Wales valleys. What IS the FB group please ? BTW, your are absolutely right, the region is very under-represented in model railway terms, which is a great pity. Edited June 19, 2018 by Holmside

[Holmside]

There was also the Maesteg system; 3 collieries sharing a washery at the exchange point, Nantyfyllon. Several route miles including a section of the Port Talbot Railway which crossed the GW Llynfi Valley line on a high embankment and an arch bridge just to the north of Maesteg Castle station. You might also include Nantgarw, newly built in the early 50s and a bit of a showcase pit, which had an adjacent coking ovens, but it was very close to the pithead.

 

Coke is another Valleys traffic of course, and a coking oven features coal in and empties out, but coke empties in and loaded out. The coke was mostly for South Wales steelworks, but Pensnett and Kinsgwinford in the Midlands were also supplied from the area. The ovens tended to be in a belt towards the southern edge of the coalfield; Nantgarw has been mentioned but Bedwas, near Caerphilly, and Beddau, between Llantrisant and Pontypridd, were working well in to the 70s. The earlier in your period, theo

more likely this was to have been carried in 7 plankers with coke rails, but later the big LMS hoppers as modelled by Hornby were used.

 

Limestone quarries on the southern fringe of the coalfield, to which they were geologically related, also fed the steelworks trade, while those on the northern rim fed Ebbw Vale's steelworks.

 

Some coal traffic appeared on general merchandise trains, for factories, forges, or local gasworks, and this would be tripped by the yard pilot as a rule, but, especially in South Wales, the very intense and localised nature of the traffic meant that rules were not as predictable as elsewhere, and a perusal of a Working Time Table, or Sectional Appendix for the area at this time is fascinating reading, and will delay your layout (and anything else in your life) by several months...

 

Local domestic coal traffic was more or less non existent; no goods yards had coal staithes, though this changed very quickly once you got out of the coalfield, the southern edge of which corresponds roughly to the route of the current M4 motorway. Coal was either obtained by land sale at the pitheads or was 'concession' coal for NCB employees, who illicitly sold it on to their neighbours and relatives. Prior to the Beeching cuts, most stations had a goods shed, and a lot of traffic came in by rail; a friend of mine brought up in Tonyrefail, on the GW's branch from Llantrisant to Penygraig, had parents who ran a general store, which was more or less entirely supplied by rail; her uncle owned a shoe shop in Porth which was also rail dependent. Post '63, the work, which was rapidly drying up as road transport poached the traffic, was concentrated on the larger stations, such as Pontypridd or Merthyr, with associated road delivery. By the end of the 60s, this was more or less dead or dying.

 

Don't forget the pit props. Most pits still used them and the miners preferred them as they would, it was said, creak and give you a few seconds warning if something bad was going to happen whereas the new steel supports just gave out without any notice. There were large depots at Marshfield on the SWML between Cardiff and Newport, and Lletty Brongu near Bridgend, providing a useful form of loaded inward traffic to the collieries. The props were stacked, mostly but not exclusively, vertically in 5 plankers, mostly fitted by the 60s. Surface building work at collieries might also generate inward traffic of ordinary goods vans and opens; it does on my layout sometimes, and the opens can be used for spoil removal!

You mentioned Bedwas in your post and also goods sheds associated with each station. I hope that you will forgive the impertinence, but can you suggest any places to look for a photograph of the goods shed at nearby Trethomas ? I have, I think, all the published books containing photos of Trethomas station, but all these except one are taken facing west towards the coke ovens and Bedwas colliery. The only one facing east towards the goods shed is of a trainstanding at Trethomas station which, of course, obscures any view of the goods shed or the associated sidings. I have been seeking such a photograph for several decades now at all the usual sources (WRRC, NRM York, photo collections at exhibitions, etc) but without success and have been advised by several archivists that if such photos exist at all that they are likely to be in private collections. One very well respected railway/industrial archivist that I consulted made the wry but well-meant comment that ‘even the GWR does not appear to have photographed Trethomas station and its surroundings ! Edited June 19, 2018 by Holmside

[The Johnster]

Quick squiz online courtesy of Google has thrown these up, which at least include the yard or part of it, but the goods shed does seem a hard one to pin down; sorry can't help more.  

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Quick squiz online courtesy of Google has thrown these up, which at least include the yard or part of it, but the goods shed does seem a hard one to pin down; sorry can't help more.  

 

But they're both pics of Caerphilly - not Trethomas.

[The Johnster]

O sh*t.  And I attended a wedding in St Martins only a few months ago!  

 

I just looked through google's images for Trethomas Railway Station, and was so convinced that Caerphilly had 4 through roads (it did in my childhood) that I never examined the situation more closely; I might have seen that one of the photos actually states that it is of Caerphilly Station had I done so.   That'll learn me, only past experience suggests that, while it should, it prolly won't...

 

My bad.

[tomparryharry]

In the 60's/70s my Gran used to live overlooking, what is now, Fairwater station on the City line.  Note sure if it was deliberate, but many of the full wagons used to clank their brakes.  We used to live in a new (1968) house in Tonteg where the TVR Llantrisant branch crossed over the Barry Railway.  There was a cast sign saying all DOWN trains, to Tonteg BR or down to the TVR mainline had to STOP to pin their brakes before proceeding. Often wondered if the brakes were meant to be pinned down.

That was an Abercynon banking job from Treforest junction up to Tonteg Junction. Trains went downhill on the 'up' road, and conversely, the uphill trains took the 'down' road.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[br2975]

This is very interesting and relevant to my own endeavours concerning modelling railways of the south Wales valleys. What IS the FB group please ? BTW, your are absolutely right, the region is very under-represented in model railway terms, which is a great pity.

 

Sorry about missing your post, and the time delay:-

 

The Facebook Group you seek is:-

 

Railways in South Wales

 

If you apply, make sure you answer the two questions, otherwise your application will be bounced.

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Brian R

[Paul H Vigor]

On 19/06/2018 at 15:40, The Stationmaster said:

 

But they're both pics of Caerphilly - not Trethomas.

Caerphilly - where the cheese comes from! 

[The Johnster]

And Tommy Cooper.  I prefer the cheese, it's funnier!