Warren Branch

[richbrummitt]

12 minutes ago, Nick C said:

"A Pictorial Record of Great Western signalling" (Vaughan, OPC) is probably worth a look too (I've not got it, but the sister Southern volume is certainly very good).

 

The Vaughan book probably not so useful to OP here since there are aspects not fully covered. The new-ish GWSG publication on the matter is meant to be the definitive work on this. (It's a big big book and I've not got very far into it.)

[chuffinghell]

Just now, Bogie said:

You are way braver than me attempting point rodding and signalling.  I know it adds to the realism but some of us just know our limitations.

 

That's why I am cheering for you on the sidelines!!

 

Go you good thing!!!

I tend to ignore my limitations and then get really frustrated with myself for not doing so

 

Thanks for the encouragement

[Nick C]

12 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

I’ve found this photo showing a ground signal behind the semaphore signal almost in line with it

 

Could I do the same?

 

 

 

 

I think in that case the ground signal is for movements out of the siding on the right. However I think this (Moretonhampstead) shows what you're thinking of:

 

 

[Alister_G]

31 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

I’ve found this photo showing a ground signal behind the semaphore signal almost in line with it

 

Now to me, who knows just enough about signalling to be dangerous, that's quite a confusing picture.

 

At first glance, the ground signal controls traffic from the branch or siding on the right of the picture, and the conventional semaphore on the right controls traffic on the left-most track of the main line.

 

Why then, have you got the semaphore on the far left of the picture?  is the righthand one a repeater for the one on the left, because it's round the bend out of sight? Or does the rightmost semaphore also control traffic from the siding / branch?

 

I'm confused.

 

Al.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Alister_G

[Nick C]

3 minutes ago, Alister_G said:

 

Now to me, who knows just enough about signalling to be dangerous, that's quite a confusing picture.

 

At first glance, the ground signal controls traffic from the branch or siding on the right of the picture, and the conventional semaphore in the centre of the picture controls traffic on the left-most track of the main line.

 

Why then, have you got the semaphore on the far left of the picture?  is the central one a repeater for the one on the left, because it's round the bend out of sight? Or does the rightmost semaphore also control traffic from the siding / branch?

 

I'm confused.

 

Al.

I suspect it's a preservation-era photo. I think the stop signal to the far left is the starter for the leftmost line, the one immediately in front of the camera is the starter for the middle line, and the shunt signal is for the siding on the right. 

 

You can just about see the back of another shunt signal at the toe of the points, presumably for access into the siding.

 

Remember that drivers are required to learn the routes, and so will know which signals apply to which movements. 

[Bogie]

7 minutes ago, Alister_G said:

I'm confused.

 

Al.

 

When someone like you makes that admission I start to breathe again.

[chuffinghell]

2 minutes ago, Bogie said:

 

When someone like you makes that admission I start to breathe again.

Well if Al’s confused then I’ve got no chance 

[Alister_G]

5 minutes ago, Bogie said:

 

When someone like you makes that admission I start to breathe again.

 

2 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

Well if Al’s confused then I’ve got no chance 

 

I make no representation to know much about signalling. You will notice that apart from Bakewell, which was fairly simple to deal with, I have avoided the whole subject...

 

Al.

[Nick C]

Here's a similar example from Alresford:

 

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4085975

 

You've got three signals visible in the photo. The two stop signals are the starters for the two platforms, the shunt signal controls movement out of the cattle dock siding.

[chuffinghell]

18 minutes ago, Alister_G said:

 

Now to me, who knows just enough about signalling to be dangerous, that's quite a confusing picture.

 

At first glance, the ground signal controls traffic from the branch or siding on the right of the picture, and the conventional semaphore on the right controls traffic on the left-most track of the main line.

 

Why then, have you got the semaphore on the far left of the picture?  is the righthand one a repeater for the one on the left, because it's round the bend out of sight? Or does the rightmost semaphore also control traffic from the siding / branch?

 

I'm confused.

 

Al.

 

You’re confused! I’m thinking about using my drill to perform a DIY lobotomy  

 

I just assumed the signalage on the posty thing is for passenger traffic and the discy signalage is for shuntage on the line to the right

 

I wish there was a ‘Janet and John’ or Ladybird book on signalling
 

 

 

[Alister_G]

3 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

I wish there was a ‘Janet and John’ or Ladybird book on signalling

 

Yes, this a thousand times. Unfortunately I rather think it's one of those subjects where there is no definitive answer to some of the basic questions, and things like whether the signalman's daughter was born on the second Tuesday in Lent can have a profound impact on the design of the signalling...

 

Al.

[chuffinghell]

I was just going to swap these two over and have the ground signal to the left of the semaphore signal which I think is what Phil suggested but I don’t know now 

 

 

To be honest I’m not sure if I interpreted what @Harlequin suggested correctly now! It’s no fun being thick sometimes!

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by chuffinghell

[chuffinghell]

With all this talk (and confusion) over signalling I’ve done very little modelling today other than paint the rodding and FPL

It’s a good job I’ve wired each individual section of track and I’m not relying on the fishplates for conductivity 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by chuffinghell

[Harlequin]

I think that because both signals relate to the same points they would usually be close together ("co-located") and both close to the points to make interlocking easier. (Moretonhampstead is an exception to this.)

 

And then, because the running signal reads to the straight ahead route and the disc reads to the route to the left (in to the loop), they would be arranged that way on the ground.

 

 

[chuffinghell]

5 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I think that because both signals relate to the same points they would usually be close together ("co-located") and both close to the points to make interlocking easier. (Moretonhampstead is an exception to this.)

 

And then, because the running signal reads to the straight ahead route and the disc reads to the route to the left (in to the loop), they would be arranged that way on the ground.

 

 

 

My saviour!

Had I interpreted what you’d previously suggested correctly?

 

Just swapping them over?

 

Would they be inline?

 

Does anyone know the phone number for the Samaritans?

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by chuffinghell

[Harlequin]

2 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

 

Just swapping them over?

 

Would they be inline?

 

I stand to be corrected but I reckon so.

 

[chuffinghell]

I’ve decided I hate signalling! 
 

I'm going to change my hobby to knitting as I’m sure that’s far less complicated. I’d love to start archery again but I don’t seem to have the time anymore

 

Thanks to everyone for your help and I appreciate your patience, I know I’m hard work sometimes

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by chuffinghell

[Nick C]

16 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I stand to be corrected but I reckon so.

 

Makes sense to me (both having the shunt on the left and them being inline).

7 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

I’ve decided I hate signalling! 

Sorry! My fault for bringing it up...

[Harlequin]

Erm, actually... Please sit down and have stiff drink before you read this...

 

You need to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about whether a lock bar would be associated with the FPL in this location. (I think it probably would - like Moretonhampstead.)

 

The lock bar prevents the points from being changed while a train is passing over them. If present, the stop signal would be in rear of the lock bar, which was usually 50ft long... (hopefully not inside your tunnel!)

 

The bar might not be very visible in model form, but the cranks and fixings associated with it would be.

 

I don't know if you relish the chance to model another detail or despair at the complexity of it all! Edit: Oops, you hate it, sorry!

Edited May 1, 2020 by Harlequin

[chuffinghell]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Erm, actually... Please sit down and have stiff drink before you read this...

 

You need to ask someone more knowledgeable than me about whether a lock bar would be associated with the FPL in this location. (I think it probably would - like Moretonhampstead.)

 

 

The lock bar prevents the points from being changed while a train is passing over them. If present, the stop signal would be in rear of the lock bar, which was usually 50ft long... (hopefully not inside your tunnel!)

 

The bar might not be very visible in model form, but the cranks and fixings associated with it would be.

 

I don't know if you relish the change to model another detail or despair at the complexity of it all!

I’m assuming this would be done with pulleys and cable? or would I need to add another rod coming out of the box and travel to the right through the tunnel?

 

The tunnel is 49ft-11” 

 

I was going to add some dummy pulleys to the entrance of the single box anyway assuming that would suffice?

[chuffinghell]

11 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Makes sense to me (both having the shunt on the left and them being inline).

Sorry! My fault for bringing it up...

No need to apologise, I’m happy that you’re offering your help and advice

[Nick C]

1 minute ago, chuffinghell said:

I’m assuming this would be done with pulleys and cable? or would I need to add another rod coming out of the box and travel to the right through the tunnel?

 

The tunnel is 49ft-11” 

 

I was going to add some dummy pulleys to the entrance of the single box anyway assuming that would suffice?

It's basically a 50ft long metal bar lying in the flangeway and connected by cranks to the facing point lock - the idea being that, as you replace the FPL lever, the bar rises and falls - if there's a train in the way, the wheel flanges stop it from rising, and so you can't release the FPL, and therefore can't change the points. We've still got some at one of our stations, but mostly they've been replaced by track circuits and electrical locks.

 

I believe that quite a few quiet branch lines didn't have them, relying on the signalman obeying the instructions to not replace the signal until the train had passed, so I wasn't going to mention them!

[Harlequin]

6 minutes ago, Nick C said:

It's basically a 50ft long metal bar lying in the flangeway and connected by cranks to the facing point lock - the idea being that, as you replace the FPL lever, the bar rises and falls - if there's a train in the way, the wheel flanges stop it from rising, and so you can't release the FPL, and therefore can't change the points. We've still got some at one of our stations, but mostly they've been replaced by track circuits and electrical locks.

 

I believe that quite a few quiet branch lines didn't have them, relying on the signalman obeying the instructions to not replace the signal until the train had passed, so I wasn't going to mention them!

Yes, much simpler if Warren station just never had a lock bar there, if that's realistic or you say that it's not modelled for reasons of compression or maybe just apply Rule 1.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Harlequin

[5BarVT]

6 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

Except that Chris has already done a very nice job of bedding the starter into the platform ramp!

Oops!

Is there a red faced emoji?

:-)

Paul.

[5BarVT]

27 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Yes, much simpler if Warren station just never had a lock bar there, if that's realistic or you say that it's not modelled for reasons of compression or maybe just apply Rule 1.

 

Much simpler to do without.  A track circuit is an alternative to the lock bar and isn’t ‘visible’ on a model.  So you already have that!

Paul.