Inglenook or Fork?

[south_tyne]

I am planning a very small shunting layout as a testbed for getting back into modelling. Debating whether an inglenook or a fork arrangement is better? I am very limited for space and wondered whether the flexibility of an extra siding is worth it?

 

In terms of operational potential, are two longer sidings better than three very short ones? It certainly looks more realistic to say have two 5-wagon sidings than three 3-wagon sidings in my opinion... but would it hinder operation?

 

I just want to see what other people thought or have learned from personal experience but I would just want a small portable layout for shuffling a few wagons at the end of the day before folding away again! Therapy after a heavy day at work!!

 

Obviously if I ha lots of room then the more sidings the better but I am not in the luxury position so needs must and realism must rule!

 

Cheers and any input appreciated.

ST

[Gilbert]

My view is that for  a shunting puzzle which keeps you interested a 5/3/3 twig is optimal if space is limited. I've done them in 00 and 0 plus a 3/2/2 US layout in HO. I'm now doing a 3/2/2 in 16mm for the WDLR.

ATB

Chris

Edited July 8, 2018 by Gilbert

[south_tyne]

My view is that for a shunting puzzle which keeps you interested a 5/3/3 twig is optimal if space is limited. I've done them in 00 and 0 plus a 3/2/2 US layout in HO. I'm now doing a 3/2/2 in 16mm for the WDLR.

ATB

Chris

Thanks Chris.

 

I love your O gauge inglenook, stunning modelling that I have admired a lot.

 

So a 3-2-2 uses 5 wagons for the puzzle?

[Gilbert]

I use 5 40' cars on Twigg Street but I confess I have a long switching lead which makes things easier.

Chris

[Thunderforge]

Two long sidings might be more prototypical than three short ones, but in a cramped industrial area needs must! If you have three factories to be served that happen to be in three different places then that’s reason enough.

Although if you have two loading bays on one siding you’ll have to clear the whole track to get the van at the back out, and then put the other wagons back where they were.

 

Have you considered a switchback? A ‘Z’ shaped layout could need two engines to shunt properly and would have four ‘ends’ rather than two or three.

[south_tyne]

I use 5 40' cars on Twigg Street but I confess I have a long switching lead which makes things easier.

Chris

Thanks Chris that is useful to know. Less moves possible than the standard 5-3-3 but I think that would need 8' in O gauge given the length of the points and that is really pushing to the maximum limit of my space so may not be possible Edited July 8, 2018 by south_tyne

[south_tyne]

Two long sidings might be more prototypical than three short ones, but in a cramped industrial area needs must! If you have three factories to be served that happen to be in three different places then that’s reason enough.

Although if you have two loading bays on one siding you’ll have to clear the whole track to get the van at the back out, and then put the other wagons back where they were.

 

Have you considered a switchback? A ‘Z’ shaped layout could need two engines to shunt properly and would have four ‘ends’ rather than two or three.

Thanks for your thoughts. Very true, although 2 sidings with '4 spots' and maybe 4 wagons to shunt may be quite interesting! I may be able to develop some kind of puzzle/game to make things interesting.

 

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of the 'z' arrangement, very interesting and food for thought.

 

With the layout being so short I would want to minimise the length lost to fiddle yard/storage and ideally would like to be fully scenic along the whole length. I

Hence contemplating a 5' long fork layout, fully scenic with a single point. Minimal I know but better than nothing and maybe a flood testbed for getting back into my modelling!

 

ST

[Pacific231G]

Thanks for your thoughts. Very true, although 2 sidings with '4 spots' and maybe 4 wagons to shunt may be quite interesting! I may be able to develop some kind of puzzle/game to make things interesting.

 

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of the 'z' arrangement, very interesting and food for thought.

 

With the layout being so short I would want to minimise the length lost to fiddle yard/storage and ideally would like to be fully scenic along the whole length. I

Hence contemplating a 5' long fork layout, fully scenic with a single point. Minimal I know but better than nothing and maybe a flood testbed for getting back into my modelling!

 

ST

Hmm. I've operated a 4'x1' Z configuration layout at exhibitions and the foot gnawing time (the time you can operate a layout for continuously before you'd rather gnaw your own foot off) was AFAIR rather shorter than for an Inglenook. 

 

What scale and prototype are you working with?

Edited July 8, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Dave47549]

 

.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Gilbert]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113995-twigg-street-was-twigg-avenue/?hl=%2Btwigg+%2Bstreet

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127585-dock-street-sidings/?hl=%2Bdock+%2Bstreet+%2Bsidings

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85974-bakewell-street/?hl=%2Bbakewell+%2Bstreet

 

Hopefully something here might help..

ATB

Chris

[Dave47549]

(deleted - duplicate posting)

Edited July 8, 2018 by Dave47549

[south_tyne]

Hmm. I've operated a 4'x1' Z configuration layout at exhibitions and the foot gnawing time (the time you can operate a layout for continuously before you'd rather gnaw your own foot off) was AFAIR rather shorter than for an Inglenook.

 

What scale and prototype are you working with?

Experience noted!

 

In terms of scale, O gauge and prototype vaguely industrial. At he moment I have a lovely Ixion Hudswell Clarke and a handful of second hand 4-wheel open wagons. Doing something in around 6 to 7 feet may be optimistic but I do like a challenge!

[south_tyne]

Why not save the room (& expense) that points require?

 

Instead, use a pivoting sector plate in your fiddle yard that can access the 3 tracks of an inglenook?

 

533sector.jpg

 

Or, if you want some pointwork, try this:

 

533sector2.jpg

Yes very good idea! The loss of scenic areafor such a small layout is my main concern but maybe he sector plate could be disguised somehow. It's worth some deliberation!

 

A quick look at this might work in 5 to 6 feet in 7mm scale... hmmm

Edited July 8, 2018 by south_tyne

[south_tyne]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113995-twigg-street-was-twigg-avenue/?hl=%2Btwigg+%2Bstreet

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/127585-dock-street-sidings/?hl=%2Bdock+%2Bstreet+%2Bsidings

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85974-bakewell-street/?hl=%2Bbakewell+%2Bstreet

 

Hopefully something here might help..

ATB

Chris

Thanks Chris that is great. I love Bakewell Street as I mentioned... it is 8' at its most basic?

 

I had never seen Dock Street Sidings before but that could well work if upscaled to 7mm scale given my severe constraints. It looks fantastic! I will have a closer look now, might work in about 7 feet in O gauge?

[Thunderforge]

The loss of scenic areafor such a small layout is my main concern but maybe he sector plate could be disguised somehow. It's worth some deliberation!

 

A quick look at this might work in 5 to 6 feet in 7mm scale... hmmm

Remember if you’re using a sector plate you’re combining headshunt, fiddle yard and all the pointwork in that one place. I’d say it would be more space efficient that way. Unfortunately I can’t think of a way of making it into a workable bit of ‘real life’, maybe an unfeasably large turntable?

[Pacific231G]

six or seven feet in O equates to about 3ft 6ins- 4 ft in 00 or H0 so you're well into "Microlayout" territory.

 

There are a couple of plans for this size that I've always rather liked. One is the "reversed" Inglenook where the long five wagon siding becomes the fiddle yard and the loco plus three wagon "headshunt" can double up as a passenge halt.

Raymond Butler's St. Marie- Ange did this very effectively to fit a 5-3-3 Inglenook into a 4ft by 10 inch folding H0 layout using a Peco Streamline small Y and small radius right hand point . Shorter British wagons should make this doable in about six foot in O gauge. and the width could be less. My photos don't do justice to Ray's  excellent street scene.

 

What I liked about this was that trains had somewhere to come from and go to rather than being left on stage between "performances"

 

That is also true of Chris Krupa's 009  Minbury Abbas

In its basic form (Chris added an optional 13 inch long fiddle yard) this is just 26-27 ins long and the track capacities are a loco plus three wagons on the hidden siding and the platform road clear of the yard point and a loco plus two wagons on the yard headshunt clear of the loco shed. This is modelled as a bucolic narrow gauge railway but I could see this plan as an  industrial scene with a private yard worked by its own loco exchanging wagons with a main line loco on the back road.

 

Seeing it in action at several shows, it seems to provice plenty of shunting interest so I worked this up on bare boards as a possible layout in H0  and it provided gainful emplyment for a North British built main line 2-8-0 tender loco and an 0-8-0 T shunter. Using Peco medium radius points it occupied about four feet with European 4 wheel wagons . I don't know what that would equate to in in 7mm scale with short wheelbase wagons and a Hudswell shunter  but I'd be surprised if you couldn't get it into six foot.

.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Pacific231G

[PatB]

There was a thread on here 2-3 years ago about a shunting/photo plank with a scenified open sector plate. Unfortunately I can't remember enough specific information about it to conduct an effective search. Viewed from a scale eye level it looked really good.

[south_tyne]

Remember if you’re using a sector plate you’re combining headshunt, fiddle yard and all the pointwork in that one place. I’d say it would be more space efficient that way. Unfortunately I can’t think of a way of making it into a workable bit of ‘real life’, maybe an unfeasably large turntable?

Very true. Having played around with some real life 1:1 planning on the dining room table, I reckon this would be possible in 150cm by around 40cm wide. A folding lightweight baseboard, with low backscenes to minimise the storage space needed. I've always had an idea of a 7mm scale layout which would be transportable on the train! Maybe this could be that idea.

[south_tyne]

six or seven feet in O equates to about 3ft 6ins- 4 ft in 00 or H0 so you're well into "Microlayout" territory.

 

There are a couple of plans for this size that I've always rather liked. One is the "reversed" Inglenook where the long five wagon siding becomes the fiddle yard and the loco plus three wagon "headshunt" can double up as a passenge halt.

Raymond Butler's St. Marie- Ange did this very effectively to fit a 5-3-3 Inglenook into a 4ft by 10 inch folding H0 layout using a Peco Streamline small Y and small radius right hand point . Shorter British wagons should make this doable in about six foot in O gauge. and the width could be less. My photos don't do justice to Ray's excellent street scene.

aug030063.JPG aug030062.JPG

 

What I liked about this was that trains had somewhere to come from and go to rather than being left on stage between "performances"

 

That is also true of Chris Krupa's 009 Minbury Abbas

Minbury Abbas GV Expong 2013 for RMW.jpg

In its basic form (Chris added an optional 13 inch long fiddle yard) this is just 26-27 ins long and the track capacities are a loco plus three wagons on the hidden siding and the platform road clear of the yard point and a loco plus two wagons on the yard headshunt clear of the loco shed. This is modelled as a bucolic narrow gauge railway but I could see this plan as an industrial scene with a private yard worked by its own loco exchanging wagons with a main line loco on the back road.

 

Seeing it in action at several shows, it seems to provice plenty of shunting interest so I worked this up on bare boards as a possible layout in H0 and it provided gainful emplyment for a North British built main line 2-8-0 tender loco and an 0-8-0 T shunter. Using Peco medium radius points it occupied about four feet with European 4 wheel wagons . I don't know what that would equate to in in 7mm scale with short wheelbase wagons and a Hudswell shunter but I'd be surprised if you couldn't get it into six foot.

.

I can see the attraction and the interesting twist of using the longer siding as the fiddle yard is something I had not thought of previously. I have seen Chris Krupa's narrow gauge layout before (in a previous life I was a 009-er) but had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder. The French layout looks lovely, I will have a closer look.

 

In O gauge, the Peco setrack points will be the anchor for length. They are 40cm long, so two back to back will take up around 90cm with an absolute minimum of clearance. 60cm each side for sidings and headshunt means around 200-210cm overall. Again maybe 'do-able' as a folding arrangement.

 

I am really liking the idea of the exchange siding scenario - the Hudswell Clarke and a NER loco 'passing the parcel' sounds right up my street! I am thinking maybe a small quarry/wharf/transhipment area for loading stone before transfer back to BR metals. Gives me an excuse to utilise my motley collection of open wagons for the industrial set up. Maybe some BR 16t minerals too.

 

I only have the one loco and a couple of wagons and I am quite enjoying planning from total scratch, in a new scale, with a clean slate. It's very refreshing!

[Gilbert]

Thanks Chris that is great. I love Bakewell Street as I mentioned... it is 8' at its most basic?

 

I had never seen Dock Street Sidings before but that could well work if upscaled to 7mm scale given my severe constraints. It looks fantastic! I will have a closer look now, might work in about 7 feet in O gauge?

BS is 8' at most basic  and can be used with an 08 or 060T and no extra bits. It could be a lot shorter if the  more recently available set track is used.

[Gilbert]

The extra siding on DSS may work well with settrack in 7mm - download some templates and have a play..

[south_tyne]

The extra siding on DSS may work well with settrack in 7mm - download some templates and have a play..

Thanks Chris I will do. I think I may squeeze the inglenook into around 2m (or 7 feet) with the setrack points as the are only 40cm long. It would suit the industrial feel much better too! As with your approach on Bakewell St I could then knock up a fiddle yard for use as and when space allowed

 

Cheers for your interest and taking the time to reply, it is very much appreciated.

 

David

Edited July 9, 2018 by south_tyne

[Gilbert]

If you do that make a fully dowelled  fiddleyard board and lay track over the joint when you build the first part -you can leave the FY until you need it but its
far easier to start off with aligned tracks rather than retro fitting for the sake of the cost of the wood and a few dowels

[Gilbert]

A further observation - I was prompted to have a play by all this chat and I have discovered that DSS will function quite happily as a 2/2/3 using long wheel based Railfreight OCAs, VDAs, PCAs, HEAs etc. Gives me an option at 2-day shows. It does need the extra shunting lead though.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Gilbert

[Pacific231G]

I can see the attraction and the interesting twist of using the longer siding as the fiddle yard is something I had not thought of previously. I have seen Chris Krupa's narrow gauge layout before (in a previous life I was a 009-er) but had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder. The French layout looks lovely, I will have a closer look.

 

In O gauge, the Peco setrack points will be the anchor for length. They are 40cm long, so two back to back will take up around 90cm with an absolute minimum of clearance. 60cm each side for sidings and headshunt means around 200-210cm overall. Again maybe 'do-able' as a folding arrangement.

 

I am really liking the idea of the exchange siding scenario - the Hudswell Clarke and a NER loco 'passing the parcel' sounds right up my street! I am thinking maybe a small quarry/wharf/transhipment area for loading stone before transfer back to BR metals. Gives me an excuse to utilise my motley collection of open wagons for the industrial set up. Maybe some BR 16t minerals too.

 

I only have the one loco and a couple of wagons and I am quite enjoying planning from total scratch, in a new scale, with a clean slate. It's very refreshing!

Hi David

This is the plan I came up with basically following Chris Krupa's design but with a straighter main line and all the track visible.

 

 

 

I then tried it out on a four foot long board with some of my French H0 stock. This is a rather crude stitch together of photos of the mockup I did on a four ft x 11 inch board. I replaced the mainline points with a Peco Y as that seemed to flow better and the other two points are (or should be) Streamline medium radius. It works just as well with three medium radius points.

 

The stock on the mock up shows one possible operating pattern where the mainline loco (in this case an SNCF Consolidation originally built by North British in Glasgow ) "arrives" from the left hand side (either really from a fiddle track or in imagination) pulling a four or five wagon train. It draws forward with the first two and the shunter (this was an SNCF 0-8-0T) takes them into the private yard, once all four or five wagons are in the yard the mainline loco  moves to the left had side and the shunter pushes two wagons out onto the main line from where the main line loco pulls theme to the other side of the yard point to allow the shunter to bring out another cut.  Eventually the mainline loco is at the head of a new five wagon train which it can haul out from whence it came. Other puzzles are possible with this. With analogue electrics You'd need a feed to the right hand end of the main line and to  the yard headshunt and probably an isolating section at the right hand end of the main line but all other switching can be by points.

 

 

The mainline has a capacity of a main line loco plus two wagons or four wagons on either side of the yard point, the yard headshunt has a capacity of a shunting loco plus two wagons and each of the sidings can hold three wagons clear of the points. This does make it possible to break and make up a new five wagon train but it would be very easy to get snookered in the process.  Four wagon trains are fairly easy and other patterns of operatino are possible. .