Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Caley Jim]

3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

 I imagine calling on arms would be used, both at the entrance and exit of the rearmost platform section. Is that correct? Or would main stop/start signals be used ... or a combination?

A calling on arm was used at the entrance to a terminal platform where there might be something standing at the buffers.  If the main arm was off, then the driver knew he was clear to the buffers, if the calling on arm was off he had to be prepared to stop sooner.

 

jim

[Nearholmer]

Not only terminal stations. They were commonly used on the southern at places where trains combined, to call a train on from a home signal, to join with a train already in the platform.

 

(Earlier, and confusingly, the southern constituents used distant arms to perform the function of calling-on signals at termini.)

 

If you can find a signalling diagram for Cambridge, or even photos of the approach signals, that might help, because it had (still has I think) one long platform serving both Up and Down, with crossovers in the middle, to make it two platforms on end. It might not quite match your need though. Victoria station in London had platforms like that too.

 

Subject to the arrival of A Real Expert, my feeling is that calling on arms at the stop signals in rear will meet your need, but I don’t recall the track arrangement, so I’m wondering about departure signals from the platform too. A calling-on arm surely couldn’t be used for departure?

 

PS: here’s a wonderful array at Cambridge, but goodness only knows how to read it! I think the two tall dolls apply to parallel main lines, and that the middle doll applies to a move from one to the other, but whether L-R, or R-L, I’m uncertain. What the little bow-tie signals are, I’m not at all sure - I thought they were calling-on arms, but I can’t make sense of that, having some idea of the track layout.

 

PPS: The bow-ties are “draw ahead” signals, which I think did have a similar function to a calling-on signal.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

With Cambridge, I’m afraid it’s lost all its “character” by having a long new island platform built across the tracks from the old platform, about ten years ago, I think.

[Caley Jim]

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Not only terminal stations. They were commonly used on the southern at places where trains combined, to call a train on from a home signal, to join with a train already in the platform.

 

(Earlier, and confusingly, the southern constituents used distant arms to perform the function of calling-on signals at termini.)

 

If you can find a signalling diagram for Cambridge, or even photos of the approach signals, that might help, because it had (still has I think) one long platform serving both Up and Down, with crossovers in the middle, to make it two platforms on end. It might not quite match your need though. Victoria station in London had platforms like that too.

 

Subject to the arrival of A Real Expert, my feeling is that calling on arms at the stop signals in rear will meet your need, but I don’t recall the track arrangement, so I’m wondering about departure signals from the platform too. A calling-on arm surely couldn’t be used for departure?

 

PS: here’s a wonderful array at Cambridge, but goodness only knows how to read it! I think the two tall dolls apply to parallel main lines, and that the middle doll applies to a move from one to the other, but whether L-R, or R-L, I’m uncertain. What the little bow-tie signals are, I’m not at all sure - I thought they were calling-on arms, but I can’t make sense of that, having some idea of the track layout.

 

PPS: The bow-ties are “draw ahead” signals, which I think did have a similar function to a calling-on signal.

 

 

 

 

I would guess that the tallest arms refer to the main (platform) road, while the lower, right hand post refers to the slow or relief road to the right.  Is there a cross-over between the two (slow to main) further along?  If so, then the middle arm would signal that.    On the CR the 'bow-tie' arm was for wrong line backing, but that is clearly not the case here.

 

Jim

[Nearholmer]

The layout was really unusual. A double track main line, with both the Up and Down platforms on one side.

 

This is a cut from a modern diagram, but the basics were the same for about a century.

 

 

The signals in the photo are roughly where the figure 1 is on the diagram, so I think the centre doll relates to a move over the scissors, and the two tall dolls to moves along the two (bi-directional at this point) main lines. But, does that middle doll authorise a move from the left track to the right, or vice versa?

 

Or, are the signals applicable only to the platform road, and amount to a three-doll starter, giving onto three different routes?

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Martin S-C]

What a spectacularly odd station! Has it ever been modelled does anyone know?

So probably in my case I need a home signal with a calling on arm below it. When both are off the whole platform is clear, when the main arm is at danger and the calling on arm is clear it allows a driver to proceed but stop short of the train ahead of him in the platform. Does that make sense?

Here's the plan showing platform 4 with a branch train arriving from the right to draw up on the right hand half of the platform (4b) and a main line train arriving from the left and drawing up in the left hand half by the footbridge (4a). Thing is the home signal for entry to that platform would most likely be to the left of the tunnel but that area is the fiddle yard. I suppose I could place a home signal near the signal box on a very short post to allow sighting from within the tunnel and a call-on arm could then be placed with it.

Would that work?

The starting signal would be at the far right end of the platform to control the release of both trains. As its a single track main the train in rear (4a) wouldn't be given the staff until the branch train had departed.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Martin S-C

[Compound2632]

Just now, Martin S-C said:

What a spectacularly odd station!

 

Cambridge was a fossil, as was Limerick Junction. It was a common arrangement for major stations in the earlies - the original Derby Tri-Junct, Huddersfield, I believe, and the original stations at Slough and Reading. In those Great Western cases, there were virtually separate up and down stations, each with their platform on a loop off the appropriate running line.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The signals in the photo are roughly where the figure 1 is on the diagram, so I think the centre doll relates to a move over the scissors, and the two tall dolls to moves along the two (bi-directional at this point) main lines. But, does that middle doll authorise a move from the left track to the right, or vice versa?

 

Or, are the signals applicable only to the platform road, and amount to a three-doll starter, giving onto three different routes?

I suspect the centre doll would be for a move departing from the platform over the scissors.   My guess would then be that the left hand bowtie was a calling on arm for the main line indicating that there was a stationary train in platform 4.  Could it be that the one on the right hand doll was a calling on arm for a train on the right hand road to cross over and enter platform 4?

 

I don't think it can be a three doll for platform 1 as there is no third diverging route after the scissors.

30 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

So probably in my case I need a home signal with a calling on arm below it. When both are off the whole platform is clear, when the main arm is at danger and the calling on arm is clear it allows a driver to proceed but stop short of the train ahead of him in the platform. Does that make sense?

Yes, you need a calling on arm below the home, but both would never be off together.  Home off = platform completely clear; calling on off = train(or vehicles, e.g parcels van) standing at far end of platform.  It's one or the other off, not both.

 

A possibility for the starting signals is that there were two, one half way along the platform for the train at the left hand end, and one at the platform end for the train at that end, both going off for the left hand train to depart?

 

Jim

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The layout was really unusual. A double track main line, with both the Up and Down platforms on one side.

 

This is a cut from a modern diagram, but the basics were the same for about a century.

 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

In those Great Western cases, there were virtually separate up and down stations, each with their platform on a loop off the appropriate running line.

Yes indeed the classic Brunel single sided station, but it's certainly unusual to find a station like Cambridge in the 20th century.

 

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

With Cambridge, I’m afraid it’s lost all its “character” by having a long new island platform built across the tracks from the old platform, about ten years ago, I think.

Spoilsports, those nasty modernists get everywhere.

[Martin S-C]

We can beat them Annie by building models of long-gone stuffs.

[ianathompson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Cambridge was a fossil,

 

The best part about Cambridge, originally, was the Newmarket branch.

This hung a sharp right off the single platform, ploughed across the goods lines, and took off due east of the station.

It is traceable on old OS maps.

 

Nothing like that now!

 

Ian T

[Martin S-C]

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=52.19370&lon=0.13693&layers=168&right=BingHyb

 

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Cambridge was a fossil

I believe quite a few are still employed in the university there.

[Annie]

What a difference between the two time periods.  So much of the old railway network is just plain gone.

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

don't think it can be a three doll for platform 1 as there is no third diverging route after the scissors.

See Ian’s post about the Newmarket Branch - that might be the third route, but TBH we’d need a full contemporary diagram to really understand this.

 

Cambridge was one of the first places that I made a long ‘railwayac’ excursion to on my own, when I was barely old-enough, because at the time not only was most of the fossilised configuration still in place, but the trains from Kings Cross still had Greeley-designed buffet cars. I was disappointed to find how far the station was from the town centre though, and that’s something that hasn’t changed!

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Cambridge .... I was disappointed to find how far the station was from the town centre though, and that’s something that hasn’t changed!

 

 

 

Yes, so was I. Every time. 

 

And the more often you did it, the longer it seemed.

 

It's a bloody long way on a bicycle in a chill easterly wind.

[Compound2632]

Was the taxi rank fiasco ever sorted out?

[Edwardian]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Was the taxi rank fiasco ever sorted out?

 

Taxis?!? I could never afford a taxi!

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Taxis?!? I could never afford a taxi!

 

This was well after your time - but some years ago whichever railway authority was in charge at the time imposed charges on taxis waiting at the station taxi rank, with the result that the taxis refused to go there - a lose-lose situation for all parties concerned.

[Denbridge]

10 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

I suspect the centre doll would be for a move departing from the platform over the scissors.   My guess would then be that the left hand bowtie was a calling on arm for the main line indicating that there was a stationary train in platform 4.  Could it be that the one on the right hand doll was a calling on arm for a train on the right hand road to cross over and enter platform 4?

 

I don't think it can be a three doll for platform 1 as there is no third diverging route after the scissors.

Yes, you need a calling on arm below the home, but both would never be off together.  Home off = platform completely clear; calling on off = train(or vehicles, e.g parcels van) standing at far end of platform.  It's one or the other off, not both.

 

A possibility for the starting signals is that there were two, one half way along the platform for the train at the left hand end, and one at the platform end for the train at that end, both going off for the left hand train to depart?

 

Jim

In many instances a train approaching an occupied platform would be brought to a dead stop, before the signalman gave permission to proceed with the calling on arm 

[Nearholmer]

I thought it was a requirement that the train must come to a dead stand, before the calling-on arm could be cleared.

[St Enodoc]

45 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I thought it was a requirement that the train must come to a dead stand, before the calling-on arm could be cleared.

Rule 44 (b): "Except where authorised, the calling-on arm must not be lowered (sic) until the train has been brought to a stand at it".

[Northroader]

Another single platform station was Wellington(Salop)

another island platform was added later on between the running lines and the engine shed on the up side, but still very short, so the Birkenhead Paddington trains had to draw up twice. So another GWR one side platform, but Northern Division standard gauge, not broadgauge.

[Regularity]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Rule 44 (b): "Except where authorised, the calling-on arm must not be lowered (sic) until the train has been brought to a stand at it".

Unless no one officious is watching, in which case it is OK for the train to be almost at a standstill.

But only if the driver and the signalman get on.

(This is what we do on East Lynn, sometimes.)

[Compound2632]

The single-sided station makes a lot of sense, really - no footbridge, underpass, or barrow crossing; no need for duplication of facilities.