Letter/numbering Fonts

[Evertrainz]

I'm aware that the lettering on wagons of the early 50s, through mid-60s when the new panels came in, are noted as Gill Sans. But I see other types of typefaces, of varying thickness and compression used which seems rather random.

 

Also some typefaces used that stemmed from LNER/LMS apparently? Does anyone know what fonts other were used for the lettering? The weight really varies, as does the spacing but is it ALL Gill Sans?

 

For an example I tried to line up a picture of the Fox Transfers BRITISH RAILWAYS transfer with a typed Gill Sans version, and the former is certainly thicker and slightly different. And different shots show different levels of compression as well.

 

Such other fonts include those where there are military-like cuts and spaces between the linear parts of the letter "E".

 

I'd appreciate any help on the fonts, they to me are just as important as liveries. I find the various inscriptions on wagons intriguing, as well as the placement on the wagon/van.

 

Thanks and regards

Ron

[Evertrainz]

I'm also interested in inscriptions on wagons/containers, such as those noting the wagon type or purpose/specific workings.

 

Such as "FRUIT" or "VANFIT" or "MEAT", are there any obscure markings on wagons? I'm certain that the iconic "REPLACE CHAIN POCKET LIDS" can't be forgotten, nor can the "TO WORK BETWEEN ABERDEEN AND KINGS CROSS". The latter I believe I've seen with an "ONLY" added to the end, add that to the fact they've been on the left, center, and right of the Blue Spot fish vans, and have been seen in white color backed with black patch. Some others I can think of are SHOCK, INSUL-MEAT, and "load only on conflat". ALE, MEDFIT, LOWFIT, and HYBAR.

 

Any others? "RETURN TO ______" ?

[Talltim]

At that period most wagon lettering would have been done by hand so a lot would have depended on the painter’s skill and interpretation of the proportions of Gill Sans

[Wickham Green]

At that period most wagon lettering would have been done by hand so a lot would have depended on the painter’s skill and interpretation of the proportions of Gill Sans

....... and how many pints he'd had the night before.

 

On the Southern there was the archetypal "NOT TO WORK BETWEEN TUNBRIDGE WELLS AND WEST ST.LEONARDS via BATTLE", of course ........ and there were others elsewhere.

[cctransuk]

I'm aware that the lettering on wagons of the early 50s, through mid-60s when the new panels came in, are noted as Gill Sans. But I see other types of typefaces, of varying thickness and compression used which seems rather random.

 

Also some typefaces used that stemmed from LNER/LMS apparently? Does anyone know what fonts other were used for the lettering? The weight really varies, as does the spacing but is it ALL Gill Sans?

 

For an example I tried to line up a picture of the Fox Transfers BRITISH RAILWAYS transfer with a typed Gill Sans version, and the former is certainly thicker and slightly different. And different shots show different levels of compression as well.

 

Such other fonts include those where there are military-like cuts and spaces between the linear parts of the letter "E".

 

I'd appreciate any help on the fonts, they to me are just as important as liveries. I find the various inscriptions on wagons intriguing, as well as the placement on the wagon/van.

 

Thanks and regards

Ron

 

Firstly, fonts didn't exist in the 1950s / 60s - there were what I believed may have been called typefaces or letterforms

 

Gill Sans - the BR version was of a medium weight which does not match any of the currently available Gill Sans computer fonts - I had to design a BR Gill Sans font from examples of BR lettering / numbering before I could design transfers for BR liveries.

 

Lettering / numbering was applied in numerous ways, from transfers, through stencils, to freehand painting by unskilled staff - no wonder there were so many apparent variations.

 

If you intend to study / categorise the styles of lettering / numbering used by BR you will have a lifetime task - though rules and guidelines existed, practicality and the available resources dictated the actual outcome.

 

When designing my transfers, I try and incorporate some of these variations in order to add authenticity to the products.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

[meil]

Firstly, fonts didn't exist in the 1950s / 60s - there were what I believed may have been called typefaces or letterforms

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

Fonts did exist in the 50s/60s and for many years before that - in fact for as long as printing.

 

What did not exist in the 50s/60s was the misuse of the term Font when what was actually meant was Typeface.

 

Typeface refers to the design of what you see - Font refers to the space it is printed in.

[Wickham Green]

Fonts did exist in the 50s/60s and for many years before that - in fact for as long as printing.

 

What did not exist in the 50s/60s was the misuse of the term Font when what was actually meant was Typeface.

 

Typeface refers to the design of what you see - Font refers to the space it is printed in.

This https://www.fastcompany.com/3028971/whats-the-difference-between-a-font-and-a-typeface may ( or may not ) clarify the difference !

[corneliuslundie]

The forthcoming HMRS book on BR SR liveries has several examples of the variations on lettering produced by the three Southern region works. Though this was for locos, I am sure there was just as much variation when it came to carriages and wagons. Even when Gill Sans Medium was specified the way it was done varied.

Jonathan

[hmrspaul]

Also some typefaces used that stemmed from LNER/LMS apparently? Does anyone know what fonts other were used for the lettering? The weight really varies, as does the spacing but is it ALL Gill Sans?

 

 

Ron

 

This may be because many of the official photos we are used to seeing were taken early in the BR period and the RCH hadn't produced its drawings showing how wagons should be written. Thus the typeface styles continued to be those that the sign writers were used to - as an example the earliest builds of the BR design standard van (with its sides of GWR origin and ends of LMS origin) had the fat face characteristic of the LMS.

 

Paul

[Evertrainz]

Gill Sans - the BR version was of a medium weight which does not match any of the currently available Gill Sans computer fonts - I had to design a BR Gill Sans font from examples of BR lettering / numbering before I could design transfers for BR liveries.

 

In short, this saves me a lot of hassle trying to stretch/thicken/thin the existing Gill Sans MT, but I've found a decent alternative that goes by the name 'Railway' which I'm sure most people have or have heard of.

 

Paul - does that mean for the earlier BR days Gill Sans was not a set standard?

 

 

I've been looking through Flickr galleries to find examples of different lettering and inscriptions on wagons, as well as get a closer look at the typeface used.

 

The '9' looks different, I have a feeling this one was a stencil job: https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/4196720631/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

Which railway's typeface? https://www.flickr.com/photos/143906024@N05/30689145934/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

Looks like a compressed Gill Sans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/39323628584/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

LNER Font? https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/39323629354/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

Stencil font on the Vanfit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8557040322/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

A very strange font on the Medfit to the right: https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/26272931472/in/faves-125881805@N02/

[hmrspaul]

 

 

Paul - does that mean for the earlier BR days Gill Sans was not a set standard?

 

Of course not, nothing was standard at the beginning, the colour to paint anything, how to number them, what designs to build etc. There doesn't appear to have been any preparation of such things; the committees met and the standards emerged - and once agreed they had to be drawn up or otherwise communicated in memoranda - and in the case of wagons the number of workshops which might repaint or renew writing was enormous - hundreds. It took until the mid 1960s and the corporate image guides to really try and get a handle on standardisation. Earlier there were lots of guidance but I've still never seen anything that said it was OK to write BRICK on the side of a bogie wagon in very large lettering - but Triang copied this correctly, or BULK UREA on a covhop.

 

The world doesn't change instantly - we rather get used to my experience last month of going on holiday in June and seeing all the ECML trains are Virgin and returning a fortnight later with LNER on the first I saw standing in York. But I soon realised that there are still plenty of Virgins around!

 

I did publish a few of these anomolies a long time ago Bartlett, Paul W. (1990a) Some rolling stock liveries of the BR period. Journal of the Historical Model Railway Society vol. 13 (part 10) pp 299 - 303.

 

Paul

Edited August 7, 2018 by hmrspaul

[cctransuk]

In short, this saves me a lot of hassle trying to stretch/thicken/thin the existing Gill Sans MT, but I've found a decent alternative that goes by the name 'Railway' which I'm sure most people have or have heard of.

 

Paul - does that mean for the earlier BR days Gill Sans was not a set standard?

 

 

I've been looking through Flickr galleries to find examples of different lettering and inscriptions on wagons, as well as get a closer look at the typeface used.

 

The '9' looks different, I have a feeling this one was a stencil job: https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/4196720631/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

Which railway's typeface? https://www.flickr.com/photos/143906024@N05/30689145934/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

Looks like a compressed Gill Sans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/39323628584/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

LNER Font? https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/39323629354/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

Stencil font on the Vanfit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8557040322/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

A very strange font on the Medfit to the right: https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/26272931472/in/faves-125881805@N02/

 

You're going to drive yourself nuts with this.

 

You simply cannot put an identification on wagon lettering - right up to the end of Gill Sans - because the vast majority was hand painted. There were as many variants as there were wagon painters.

 

They had a working knowledge of what to paint, and a general idea of where to paint it; they may even have known (or not?) what Gill Sans was meant to look like. Beyond that, if the information painted was correct and legible - who cared?

 

What did you do if the necessary lettering would not fit - at the prescribed size - into the space available? You squashed it up - or as you phrase it, 'compressed' it.

 

What did you do if you'd spent the last thirty-odd years lettering wagons in the LMS block style - change to Gill Sans overnight and decimate your work output (piece-rate?)? Nope, you carried on regardless; perhaps just amending what information was put where, if necessary.

 

One thing that you learn when designing wagon transfers from prototype photos is that, whilst you may know what the BR prescribed way of doing it was - very few wagon painters either knew or cared !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

[Gibbo675]

You're going to drive yourself nuts with this.

 

 

One thing that you learn when designing wagon transfers from prototype photos is that, whilst you may know what the BR prescribed way of doing it was - very few wagon painters either knew or cared !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm

Hi John,

 

With these two comments you have identified very well the disparity between the way that modellers and the real railway go about their business.

 

The other one is shades of paint, especially years ago when the painters weighed out their own pigments and mixed them per individual job, and that is before we get into the effects of sun bleaching.

 

Gibbo.

[Evertrainz]

Hi John, from the start I was well aware I wouldn't be able to cover every single variation in text ever made! But what I didn't know was that painters didn't care to stick with Gill Sans or a variation of.

 

So quite literally: any typeface/font that looks appropriate would work without much complaining, much like the mindset of a painter..

 

Regards

Ron

[cctransuk]

Hi John, from the start I was well aware I wouldn't be able to cover every single variation in text ever made! But what I didn't know was that painters didn't care to stick with Gill Sans or a variation of.

 

So quite literally: any typeface/font that looks appropriate would work without much complaining, much like the mindset of a painter..

 

Regards

Ron

 

Ron,

 

The best advice that I can give is for you to beg / borrow / purchase as many wagon photo books as possible, and to visit as many on-line wagon photo sites as you can find.

 

These will indicate that, whilst there were definite trends, the actuality bore very little resemblance to the theory.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Wagon Matt]

This is a minefield I have explored before.
​Gill Sans Medium type in white was the BR specification

​Indeed this was applied by some and can be clearly seen in the first few minutes of the BTF by Geoffrey Jones "Snow(1963)"  

 

From here the waters become muddy very quickly.

As stated above it was down to the sign writers that applied the lettering and there own style inevitably came through.

I have used many sources, mainly books,  and have copied many different styles.
​I predominantly use Gill Sans MT with slight variations and sometimes use details from the LNER Sign writers guide, although it states Gill Sans it is different to that used by BR.  For post 1964 scheme vehicles I use Rail Alphabet

 

These are of cause full size vehicles but the problems are the same for the smaller scales.

 

[Evertrainz]

Hi Matt

 

For the time being I have just been scanning close-ups of the wagon lettering I've found on Flickr and plugging them into a font-identifier website which then pulls up the closest match.

 

On the first Vanfit in your post we can see the "compressed" letters as John noted squished to make it fit in the small space.

 

But more interesting to me now, after realizing one single typeface is certainly not going to work out, is the different markings on those two Vanfits in your post. I didn't know that Standard 12T vans had such markings? Or were they added by the preservation groups? I know Meat/Ale, Shoc, Fruit, and maybe Banana vans of BR design had such markings but on a Standard van? Also interesting is the "western" below the number on that Shocvan.

 

What is the 'L' below the tare weight on the shot from 'Snow'? So many questions now...

[cctransuk]

Hi Matt

 

For the time being I have just been scanning close-ups of the wagon lettering I've found on Flickr and plugging them into a font-identifier website which then pulls up the closest match.

 

On the first Vanfit in your post we can see the "compressed" letters as John noted squished to make it fit in the small space.

 

But more interesting to me now, after realizing one single typeface is certainly not going to work out, is the different markings on those two Vanfits in your post. I didn't know that Standard 12T vans had such markings? Or were they added by the preservation groups? I know Meat/Ale, Shoc, Fruit, and maybe Banana vans of BR design had such markings but on a Standard van? Also interesting is the "western" below the number on that Shocvan.

 

What is the 'L' below the tare weight on the shot from 'Snow'? So many questions now...

 

You really need to do a lot of research into this subject - by that, I mean reading books and studying websites.

 

Your knowledge of BR-era wagon markings is clearly pretty basic, and I would respectfully suggest that simply asking a myriad of questions on a group such as this is not a reasonable approach to acquiring the depth of knowledge that you seek.

 

I have been interested in BR wagons for in excess of fifty years, and in that time I have spent a LOT of money on specialist wagon books, and innumerable hours reading specialist websites and records.

 

Whilst this group is intended for modellers to share knowledge, it is not unreasonable to expect seekers after detailed knowledge to invest some time and money in their research.

 

A font identifer is all very well in today's technology, but what exactly have you learned from it - that the personal style of painter Fred Bloggs is something like computer font XYZ?

 

If you are really serious about this line of study, a pre-arranged visit to the NRM (aka TRM) to consult their wagon markings records is an essential first step.

 

I suspect, (though I may be wholly incorrect), that you are seeking to reproduce 1950s / 60s wagon lettering using modern IT methods; hopefully by using readily available computer fonts. If this is the case, I'm afraid that you will be disappointed - an awful lot of digital drawing will be involved, as I can assert from much personal experience.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Evertrainz]

Hi John, I seem to have forgotten to mention (!) that I’m creating wagons for railway simulation, ie V Scale. For this reason your sets of transfers, and pretty much any collaborative wagon parts or paints that I can swap out to get the most realistic and true-to-life model railway I am unable to use. Everything, from wheels to couplers to lettering to paint, has to be created in a 3D modeling program or image editor by me.

 

All I’d do is plug in the font that I’d find to be a good fit in an image editor, and this would be added onto the texture. https://flic.kr/p/28nNCjk

 

As for a trip to the NRM - or local preserved line - or even local train hobby shop - not happening as none of those are realistically possible for me here in America. It’s certainly been a challenge trying to get into this hobby with such little local resources, never mind the fact I’ve never seen a British train in my life!

 

Along those lines shipping costs for books is also a massive pain, I’ve only got the Don Rowland book which has proved to be very valuable. Have you any suggestions for books that have good details and pictures of 50/60s condition wagons?

[cctransuk]

Hi John, I seem to have forgotten to mention (!) that I’m creating wagons for railway simulation, ie V Scale. For this reason your sets of transfers, and pretty much any collaborative wagon parts or paints that I can swap out to get the most realistic and true-to-life model railway I am unable to use. Everything, from wheels to couplers to lettering to paint, has to be created in a 3D modeling program or image editor by me.

 

All I’d do is plug in the font that I’d find to be a good fit in an image editor, and this would be added onto the texture. https://flic.kr/p/28nNCjk

 

As for a trip to the NRM - or local preserved line - or even local train hobby shop - not happening as none of those are realistically possible for me here in America. It’s certainly been a challenge trying to get into this hobby with such little local resources, never mind the fact I’ve never seen a British train in my life!

 

Along those lines shipping costs for books is also a massive pain, I’ve only got the Don Rowland book which has proved to be very valuable. Have you any suggestions for books that have good details and pictures of 50/60s condition wagons?

 

Try a Google search on "british railways wagon books" - that'll keep you occupied for a while.

 

I do think that your project is perhaps a little ambitious for someone with no personal knowledge of 1950s / 60s British Railways, and little or no access to printed reference material.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Wagon Matt]

Hi Matt

 

For the time being I have just been scanning close-ups of the wagon lettering I've found on Flickr and plugging them into a font-identifier website which then pulls up the closest match.

 

On the first Vanfit in your post we can see the "compressed" letters as John noted squished to make it fit in the small space.

 

But more interesting to me now, after realizing one single typeface is certainly not going to work out, is the different markings on those two Vanfits in your post. I didn't know that Standard 12T vans had such markings? Or were they added by the preservation groups? I know Meat/Ale, Shoc, Fruit, and maybe Banana vans of BR design had such markings but on a Standard van? Also interesting is the "western" below the number on that Shocvan.

 

What is the 'L' below the tare weight on the shot from 'Snow'? So many questions now...

 

Hello,

 

Standard 12T vans carried either Van, Vanfit or neither, again down to the interpretation of the personnel applying the livery.  This is prior to the implementation of TOPS (Total Operations Processing System) at the end of the1960s which categorised vehicles in to codes with Standard 12T revenue earning vehicles becoming VVV

 

​Paul Bartlett's excellent site shows some of these

Van

​Vanfit

 

Shocvans and other specialist vehicles were allocated to certain traffic.  B850498 and sister B850499 were allocated to Tinplate traffic out of Bynea, located in the Western Region and this adorned the side of the vehicle. 

 

This is an ex works image of B850333 allocated to the London Midland Region from 1957 and is found in:

 

FREIGHT WAGONS AND LOADS IN SERVICE ON THE GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY AND BRITISH RAIL, WESTERN REGION

Author: J.H. Russell

ISBN: 0860931552

 

​The little symbol on the van in "Snow" and on a few of the ones I have done are BR Paint Symbols,  they are 12 repeating symbols that indicate the year the vehicle was painted.  I have continued this system and the symbols I apply match the current year.  Wagon repaints were no more than 12 years apart so there was no repeating of symbols (Apparently)

 

 

I have had a look at your images on Flickr and I'm afraid your fish vans are wrong.  The blue spot represents a roller bearing fitted vehicle, but you have modelled open fronted plain white metal bearing axel boxes.

[Wheatley]

Have you any suggestions for books that have good details and pictures of 50/60s condition wagons?

Anything by David Larkin, there was a Bradford Barton series in the 80s (?) and a more recent Kestrel Books one.

 

Geoff Gamble - "Railways in Profile" series published by Cheona.

 

Geoff Kent - "The 4mm Wagon" (vols 1 to 3) published by Wild Swan. They're modellers' books but there are loads of prototype pics.

 

Larkin, Mann and some gent callet Bartlett - "An Illustrated History of BR Goods Wagons Vol 1" :-)

 

Nearly all are out of print so try Abe Books first for all but the later Larkin ones.

[cctransuk]

Hello,

 

Standard 12T vans carried either Van, Vanfit or neither, again down to the interpretation of the personnel applying the livery.  This is prior to the implementation of TOPS (Total Operations Processing System) at the end of the1960s which categorised vehicles in to codes with Standard 12T revenue earning vehicles becoming VVV

 

​Paul Bartlett's excellent site shows some of these

Van

​Vanfit

 

Shocvans and other specialist vehicles were allocated to certain traffic.  B850498 and sister B850499 were allocated to Tinplate traffic out of Bynea, located in the Western Region and this adorned the side of the vehicle. 

 

This is an ex works image of B850333 allocated to the London Midland Region from 1957 and is found in:

 

FREIGHT WAGONS AND LOADS IN SERVICE ON THE GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY AND BRITISH RAIL, WESTERN REGION

Author: J.H. Russell

ISBN: 0860931552

850333.jpg

 

​The little symbol on the van in "Snow" and on a few of the ones I have done are BR Paint Symbols,  they are 12 repeating symbols that indicate the year the vehicle was painted.  I have continued this system and the symbols I apply match the current year.  Wagon repaints were no more than 12 years apart so there was no repeating of symbols (Apparently)

 

paint-symbols.png

 

I have had a look at your images on Flickr and I'm afraid your fish vans are wrong.  The blue spot represents a roller bearing fitted vehicle, but you have modelled open fronted plain white metal bearing axel boxes.

 

There is a typo in the symbols chart; the last one - T - is for 1956, not 1957.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Wagon Matt]

There is a typo in the symbols chart; the last one - T - is for 1956, not 1957.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Thanks for that, although for my purpose its not an issue as I'm using the chart for the current year.

[Evertrainz]

...

 

I do think that your project is perhaps a little ambitious for someone with no personal knowledge of 1950s / 60s British Railways, and little or no access to printed reference material.

...

How so? I think that I'm doing fairly alright, here's a sample ply standard van which apart from the (soon-to-be corrected) typeface seems fairly accurate https://flic.kr/p/W8RFre . The deed has already been done, I thought I'd covered most variations (solebar-up) found in the 50s/early 60s era but the different font typefaces used has me revisiting this project. Apart from that the "ambition" has already been satisfied as I've finished the "big 4" wagons in the form of the basic 16T welded mineral, Standard brake, Standard van, and Conflat/containers. With the ever-so-confusing topic of lettering and inscriptions being the missing piece of the puzzle. Add the 'BR Paint Symbols' explained by Matt and it's only getting more confusing.

 

...

 

I have had a look at your images on Flickr and I'm afraid your fish vans are wrong. The blue spot represents a roller bearing fitted vehicle, but you have modelled open fronted plain white metal bearing axel boxes.

I'm well aware of this and the final product will have the correct running gear. Thanks for pointing it out, as well as for the painted symbols. I assume this is another one of those things that varied right down to the painter.

 

As for buying any books that will have to be saved for later on in the year as I'll be off to college in a few days. I apologize if this offends anyone who has spend much of their lives working on wagon books but: are there any online copies or "e-books" with good wagon info? Once again apologies if it comes off as blunt but sometimes the 10 to 20 pound shipping to America can be very off-putting and remains a main reason why I've avoided purchasing books. Those that I do own, which is the mentioned D. Rowland book and a copy of a magazine (which I solely bought as Paul Bartlett mentioned it had a Stove R branded for working with Condor) were shipped within America, so a less-than-$3 shipping cost.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Evertrainz