Do I need a power booster?

[centraltrains]

I have a basic 3 loop layout. Depending on the trains I run, often I find when running multiple trains they will all go a bit slower. One specific example is when running a Dapol 68, when I then run 2 Dapol 121s (in multiple) the 68 suddenly slows down a bit. It does this with other combinations of locomotives too (mainly when running 3 trains at once, and one of them is in multiple) however no other specific examples spring immediately to mind.

 

I have 3 loops on my layout (the outer one leading to an under storage system) so think it would be easy to separate it into 3 power regions (inner loop & above sidings, middle loop, outer loop and underground sidings).

My layout is a very basic loop, no attempt really to make it look very realistic, with very sharp visible 90 degree bends, Each side is probably about 3m in length. The manuals for the power boosters say that size can be why they are needed so thought I better mention it.

 

My controller is a Hornby Elite with 2 Select walkabouts (I do not wish to change this, I am only interested in console based systems, and don't have £500 for an ECoS system). Seeing as Hornby has discontinued their power booster I am getting a tad panicky and thinking I need to buy one quickly before they all sell out so just want to make sure they are needed first. Am really annoyed I didn't buy the boosters in the hattons sales the other year now... Knew i'd probably regret that.

 

Thanks in advance for any answers!

Edited August 7, 2018 by centraltrains

[Ray H]

A very quick glance at the Elite manual that I downloaded suggests that the power supply is rated at 4 amps. This should be more than enough for what you are doing. I have an NCE Power Cab - their basic system - that is only rated at around 1.5 amps and we managed to run 4 O gauge locos with sound decoders around our club layout which measure approx. 40 feet by 20 feet.

 

I'd be tempted to point the finger at the Class 68 if this is the only loco/unit that shows this problem. However, having said that I'd suggest trying as much rolling stock as you can to see if you can narrow down the culprit.

[centraltrains]

I'd be tempted to point the finger at the Class 68 if this is the only loco/unit that shows this problem. However, having said that I'd suggest trying as much rolling stock as you can to see if you can narrow down the culprit.

 

I feared that may be the answer. It tends to be any combination of locos which can cause it, the older style 150s with pretty much anything, the Hornby HST with most things. Is there a way to measure how many amps a loco is pulling?

[Pete the Elaner]

The answer to that should be in the manual. If it is not there, then probably not.

The PowerCab can do it, but NCE's 'full' system the PowerPro lacks this function. That may seem bizarre but an ammeter needs to be part of the power supply.

 

I have not seen Hornby's documentation (obviously judging by my first comment) but a booster will probably only be useful if you have another power district: instead of doubling the current through one district, it allows you to use the integral booster in the Elite for 1 district & use the booster to supply a second one.

If you only have 1 power district then I doubt a booster will be of any use.

 

For comparison, I have run 6 trains (1 double headed IIRC) with my 5amp PowerPro. They only draw fill current under a heavy load so 4A should be sufficient for 3 trains, even if they are all current-hungry Heljan class 47s.

[DCB]

There are posts on the Facebook Group  "Railway modelling on a limited income" showing locomotives actually on fire so think hard before boosting power beyond 4 amps.   

Edited August 7, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[centraltrains]

The answer to that should be in the manual. If it is not there, then probably not.

The PowerCab can do it, but NCE's 'full' system the PowerPro lacks this function. That may seem bizarre but an ammeter needs to be part of the power supply.

 

I have not seen Hornby's documentation (obviously judging by my first comment) but a booster will probably only be useful if you have another power district: instead of doubling the current through one district, it allows you to use the integral booster in the Elite for 1 district & use the booster to supply a second one.

If you only have 1 power district then I doubt a booster will be of any use.

 

For comparison, I have run 6 trains (1 double headed IIRC) with my 5amp PowerPro. They only draw fill current under a heavy load so 4A should be sufficient for 3 trains, even if they are all current-hungry Heljan class 47s.

I don't think the Elite can do that. I would have thought it would have been possible with some sort of tool.

 

There are isolating sections between all sets of points between the loops, so I think it would be relativity easy to just make each loop it's own power district.

 

 

I have a lot of static trains with decoders, I would assume the decoders are always on, would this draw a lot of current? (about 30?) 

 

 

 

There are posts on the Facebook Group  "Railway Modelling on a budget" showing locomotives actually on fire so think hard before boosting power beyond 4 amps.   

I don't intend on increasing the ampage. I don't think the Elite supports more than 4Amps anyway..

[RFS]

Is the transformer you are using actually 4 amps, and not a lower powered one?

 

Also how is your DCC bus organized? If the wiring is not up to scratch you could have a problem with voltage drop. Try the coin test: remove all locos from the track, and place a coin across the rails for force a short. Does the Elite trip immediately? If it doesn't you have a real problem, especially if a loco short goes undetected.  

Edited August 7, 2018 by RFS

[DCB]

Sounds like you definitely need to have each loop as its own power district. Where are all these sound and lights vehicles stored?.  If in a depot then make that a separate power district too

Personally I would put a 1 amp Polyswitch ( auto resetting fuse) on each district just in case.  Its not unusual to find 1Amp wires connecting the controller to the Bus and for people to start thinking they have voltage drop and need more droppers, whereas in fact they need 5 amp wire from controller to Bus.  

My experience of outdoor layouts is that big benefits come from reducing the amperage to around 0.5 amps and the voltage to 12 max with very sensitive cut outs. My "Voltage Drop" just about vanished over night, and point blade contact failure also reduced dramatically when I went down from 15 volts to 12 and 1.5 amps to 0.5.   Previously I had fishplates glowing red and almost yellow on 2X 1 amp controllers with a triple headed goods.  Luckily this was outside and it didn't set fire to the scenery.  But see the Railway modelling on a limited income facebook with a A3 body melting above a failed DCC decoder and the diesel actually burning

[Steven B]

With three or four motors running I wouldn't have thought you'd have any need for a booster.

 

However, you say that there are another 30 locos on the layout; Do you leave these with the lights on? If you take some (all) of these off do the problems you're experiencing go away? If so, then yes you need more current.

 

However, a less expensive approach would be to fit switches to your fiddle-yard - do you really need lights left on on locos you're not using and aren't parked in a scenic area?

 

Steven B.

[centraltrains]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

It seems like I may have multiple issues related?

Is the transformer you are using actually 4 amps, and not a lower powered one?

 

Also how is your DCC bus organized? If the wiring is not up to scratch you could have a problem with voltage drop. Try the coin test: remove all locos from the track, and place a coin across the rails for force a short. Does the Elite trip immediately? If it doesn't you have a real problem, especially if a loco short goes undetected.  

My DCC set-up is the wires out of the DCC controller into a daisy chained terminal strips which then has a wire going into each slot for each track connection. Yesterday I had a short circuit caused by a derailed coach, which the controller wasn't picking up. In trying to diagnose, I noticed the wires were getting a bit hot, so I guess I perhaps need a more substantial wire from controller to terminals might work as I'm only using the 0.1mm rapid wires at the moment?

I did also just try this and it took about 2 seconds before cutting out.

 

 

With three or four motors running I wouldn't have thought you'd have any need for a booster.

 

However, you say that there are another 30 locos on the layout; Do you leave these with the lights on? If you take some (all) of these off do the problems you're experiencing go away? If so, then yes you need more current.

 

However, a less expensive approach would be to fit switches to your fiddle-yard - do you really need lights left on on locos you're not using and aren't parked in a scenic area?

 

Steven B.

I don't keep the lights on (apart from on a digitrax decoder which seems to default to on). When I unplugged the bottom section, the locos sped up so it suggests that perhaps this is also a problem?

I defiantly think a switch would be useful here. Not totally sure what the best plan of action is though.

 

 

I think the first step would be up upgrade the wring to the terminal, But I'm not sure that in itself is enough to sort out that specific problem? If not, what should I do? Is there a better connection system I should be using? I don't really want to take the metal tape approach as it would interfere with accessibility too much.

Assuming I upgrade this somewhat and if it still appears to be a problem, maybe I should look to split it into just 2 regions? Not 100% sure how I would do this though, would it be sensible to have 1 loop and a depot connected into one region?

(I can't really fiddle around in the under section much as it's only 16cm away from the board above, hence I personally refer to it as a depot then a fiddle yard).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

My DCC set-up is the wires out of the DCC controller into a daisy chained terminal strips which then has a wire going into each slot for each track connection. Yesterday I had a short circuit caused by a derailed coach, which the controller wasn't picking up. In trying to diagnose, I noticed the wires were getting a bit hot, so I guess I perhaps need a more substantial wire from controller to terminals might work as I'm only using the 0.1mm rapid wires at the moment?

I did also just try this and it took about 2 seconds before cutting out.

 

When I unplugged the bottom section, the locos sped up so it suggests that perhaps this is also a problem?

 I am afraid the only sound advice I can offer is to cease operation, tear out all the present wiring, and do a decent job on the layout wiring..

 

Everything in the quote above suggests that there is no problem with your DCC system or the locos on the tracks. The problem is the wiring between the DCC system and the rails. What you need is thick copper wire (the copper cores from 5A 'twin and earth' wire as a minimum) from the DCC system, running around the layout roughly following the track plan as a pair of busses. Solder on short pieces of thinner wire between bus and rail at regular intervals. That way any short circuit on the rails will instantly cause the DCC system to trip.

[Dungrange]

Wire with a cross-section of just 0.1 mm² is really only suitable for a current of less than one Amp (ideally less than something like 0.5 Amps).  That is, such thin wire can really only be used for droppers where the only current flowing through them would be from a single locomotive.  It's certainly not suitable for use as a DCC power bus.

 

If your DCC system is capable of outputting 4 Amps, then you need a much thicker wire that is capable of carrying at least 4 Amps: a minimum cross-section somewhere in the region of 1.0 mm².  However, to minimise voltage drop, I'd be looking for something closer to 2 mm² for the bus wire, including the connection from the command station to the layout.  I think the wire, that I have purchased for my DCC bus, has a cross-section of 2.5mm².

[RAF96]

The general rule of thumb is if your layout occupies both sides of a double garage you may need a booster.

 

In any case Hornby (and logically other systems) uses this ‘booster’ method:

 

The Elite with its 4-amp PSU supplies power and control to the main power district.

If you need more power or want some isolation for fault finding, etc then use a Signal and Power Booster R8249. This has it own 4-amp supply and powers a completely isolated second power district.

The connection from the Elite to the Booster is such that the DCC signal is passed from one district to the other allowing uniterupted control across the districts.

 

There is no direct connection between districts and only one controller is ever in use.

 

Other systems use the same methodology.

 

Edit - the Hattons deal was a bargain as you got the booster and the 4-amp PSU for less than the retail price of the PSU.

Rob

Edited August 7, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[RFS]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

It seems like I may have multiple issues related?

My DCC set-up is the wires out of the DCC controller into a daisy chained terminal strips which then has a wire going into each slot for each track connection. Yesterday I had a short circuit caused by a derailed coach, which the controller wasn't picking up. In trying to diagnose, I noticed the wires were getting a bit hot, so I guess I perhaps need a more substantial wire from controller to terminals might work as I'm only using the 0.1mm rapid wires at the moment?

I did also just try this and it took about 2 seconds before cutting out.

 

As others have already posted, your wiring is inadequate and potentially dangerous.  If the derailed item is a loco and not a coach, then 2 seconds of nearly full power is enough to do real damage. I have heard people find a loco has fused itself to the track, and in the worst case scenario it starts a small fire.

 

I would recommend a trip to a DIY store and get yourself some twin-and-earth wire - at least 1.5mm or preferably 2.5mm. Strip off the grey outer coding, and you have a pair of brown and blue wires for your bus. Then I think you'll find your 4-amp system is more than enough to cope with your needs.

 

I have a Lenz 5A system, but 1A of that is taken by the Tortoise motors.  I have about 70 locos on the track at any time, but with RR&Co automation I can run many more trains automatically than I could ever do manually. I have tried to see if I can trip the Lenz, and managed at one time to get 13 trains running simultaneously, but the Lenz didn't blink.  

[centraltrains]

Thanks for the info,

 

I don't have time or the access to replace all the wire. It has been operating like this for a good 2 years and I've never had any big problems apart from the speed. I shall upgrade the wire between the controller and blocks, and the daisy chain between the blocks. I don't intend to have this layout forever, so i'll just keep all the info about the wiring in mind for the next layout. It was wire originally purchased for locos (but was too thick) so I guess I shan't be doing that again!

 

I guess this explains why the middle loop often runs slower? (Less junctions so less points where a wire meets the track so less voltage?)

[centraltrains]

Oh hang on, I said 0.1mm, I meant 1mm (must have been thinking in cm, whoops). 

Edited August 7, 2018 by centraltrains

[RFS]

Understand your reasons, but do make sure when you have done the upgrades you propose that the system shuts down immediately when a short occurs anywhere on the layout (coin test procedure). 15 volts @ 4 amps = 60 watts and is a lot of power: think how hot a 60w incandescent light bulb gets the moment you flick the switch. 

 

If you have a turnout on your layout where you only get 40w due to thin wiring, then the Elite is not going to shut down on a short caused by a derailment because it doesn't see an overload. 40w is still a lot of power and can do serious damage to delicate plastic locomotives in no more than a couple of seconds. 

[Suzie]

You should not need a booster - 4A should be enough for what you are running, but you do need to sort out the wiring. Run a bus with 2.5mm² wire around your layout and feed each track section from that with short lengths of 16/02 or similar sized wire.

 

A short should shut it down instantly! The coin test (short the track anywhere with a coin) is a basic test to ensure that the wiring is sound - if the power stays on cease operations immediately and find the poor connection. If the wire is getting hot with only 4A flowing it is way too thin.

 

You can divide into power districts and run a separate bus for each district if you want to, but you really need to install an electronic circuit breaker for each power district that you create.

[centraltrains]

Understand your reasons, but do make sure when you have done the upgrades you propose that the system shuts down immediately when a short occurs anywhere on the layout (coin test procedure). 15 volts @ 4 amps = 60 watts and is a lot of power: think how hot a 60w incandescent light bulb gets the moment you flick the switch. 

 

If you have a turnout on your layout where you only get 40w due to thin wiring, then the Elite is not going to shut down on a short caused by a derailment because it doesn't see an overload. 40w is still a lot of power and can do serious damage to delicate plastic locomotives in no more than a couple of seconds. 

 

It usually does cut off when that happens to be fair. Sometimes it makes a strange sound where it sounds like its trying to cut off but doesn't. 

 

You should not need a booster - 4A should be enough for what you are running, but you do need to sort out the wiring. Run a bus with 2.5mm² wire around your layout and feed each track section from that with short lengths of 16/02 or similar sized wire.

 

A short should shut it down instantly! The coin test (short the track anywhere with a coin) is a basic test to ensure that the wiring is sound - if the power stays on cease operations immediately and find the poor connection. If the wire is getting hot with only 4A flowing it is way too thin.

 

You can divide into power districts and run a separate bus for each district if you want to, but you really need to install an electronic circuit breaker for each power district that you create.

 

What type of circuit breaker and where in the circuit would it go? Immediately after the output of the booster?

[Suzie]

...What type of circuit breaker and where in the circuit would it go? Immediately after the output of the booster?

 

An electronic one, and you will need one for each power district. It should go after the output of your booster and feed the power district.

 

Since you have three main lines with one train on each you might like to get three circuit breakers and mount them on the layout where the big fat wire comes in from the booster, and feed the three outputs to three separate big fat track buses.

[Crosland]

It seems like I may have multiple issues related?

My DCC set-up is the wires out of the DCC controller into a daisy chained terminal strips which then has a wire going into each slot for each track connection. Yesterday I had a short circuit caused by a derailed coach, which the controller wasn't picking up. In trying to diagnose, I noticed the wires were getting a bit hot, so I guess I perhaps need a more substantial wire from controller to terminals might work as I'm only using the 0.1mm rapid wires at the moment?

I did also just try this and it took about 2 seconds before cutting out.

 

Your wiring is seriously sub-par.

 

The general rule of thumb is if your layout occupies both sides of a double garage you may need a booster.

 

Given good wiring practice, the only determinant of booster requirements is the total current needed by the layout. A physically large layout is not the same as a layout with a high current draw.

 

 

It usually does cut off when that happens to be fair. Sometimes it makes a strange sound where it sounds like its trying to cut off but doesn't. 

 

 

What type of circuit breaker and where in the circuit would it go? Immediately after the output of the booster?

You need to address the wiring problem, not try to apply a sticking plaster. There is no guarantee that a circuit breaker will operate correctly. It is not a substitute for poor wiring. Google fro Brian Lambert's website or Alan Gartner's "wiring for dcc".

[centraltrains]

 

Your wiring is seriously sub-par.

 

 

Given good wiring practice, the only determinant of booster requirements is the total current needed by the layout. A physically large layout is not the same as a layout with a high current draw.

 

 

You need to address the wiring problem, not try to apply a sticking plaster. There is no guarantee that a circuit breaker will operate correctly. It is not a substitute for poor wiring. Google fro Brian Lambert's website or Alan Gartner's "wiring for dcc".

 

Action plan is:

 

 

I shall upgrade the wire between the controller and blocks, and the daisy chain between the blocks. I don't intend to have this layout forever, so i'll just keep all the info about the wiring in mind for the next layout. It was wire originally purchased for locos (but was too thick) so I guess I shan't be doing that again!

 

From that point onward, I was only really asking about circuit breakers with the future in mind. I've already been told many times the wiring is poor, I don't need telling over and over again as the repetition is pushing it more and more to the point of depression.

 

As others have already posted, your wiring is inadequate and potentially dangerous. 

 

 I am afraid the only sound advice I can offer is to cease operation, tear out all the present wiring, and do a decent job on the layout wiring..

 

 

 

 A physically large layout is not the same as a layout with a high current draw.

There is no guarantee that a circuit breaker will operate correctly. It is not a substitute for poor wiring. Google fro Brian Lambert's website or Alan Gartner's "wiring for dcc".

 

Would have been good enough.. I shall bookmark them for when I do my next layout so thank you for the reference.

[centraltrains]

WOW! Just finished upgrading the wires between the controller/terminal boxes & throughout the terminal boxes, and it's like a totally different layout! No more power issues at all, trains i'd never have dreamt at running at the same time are now! Thanks for your help!

[Crosland]

WOW! Just finished upgrading the wires between the controller/terminal boxes & throughout the terminal boxes, and it's like a totally different layout! No more power issues at all, trains i'd never have dreamt at running at the same time are now! Thanks for your help!

 

This post should be pinned at the top of the DCC help forum, as proof positive that we do know what we are talking about

[centraltrains]

This post should be pinned at the top of the DCC help forum, as proof positive that we do know what we are talking about

I wouldn't expect you not to know!!! I just felt the repetitive criticism too much after i'd already posted an action plan as i'm over sensitive for no apparent reason.

Edited August 10, 2018 by centraltrains