Nick G Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Evening all, I am looking for transfers, data panels, numbers and CAR lettering to detail some BR 20t air braked brake vans. I have looked around the usual websites but can't seem to find anything suitable. I could be missing them of course, ant one have any ideas? Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I put a similar question a few months ago, I had Modelmaster 4859 decal set which includes 3 pairs of alternative CAR number panels. However the the black verander end lettering "Air Piped" which is applied on the yellow painted panel is not available, the same as the various body side instructons. An email to Railtec got a responce I think of "it's on a to do project list", so I decided to wait. Modelmaster 4859 contains enough for 10 brakevans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 The topic of brake vans is one which probably needs a bit of time setting aside in order to tackle in a way which makes sense to a modeller as well as myself as a manufacturer, and this will vary from scale to scale. At least for the BR period, I think the biggest challenge lies in my belief that the markings on these could vary significantly, even within sub-type - and that makes creating a pack which is relevant yet small enough to appeal can be a difficult balance to strike. One thing I'm keen to avoid is much of a pack going to waste. I think I'll need to start small and gradually work my way upwards, so a couple of questions which may help me and ultimately yourselves:- How many brakevans do folks typically have on their layout?- Would it make sense to have a pack solely for, let's say, CAP/CAR vans, OR, do I include them in other packs which may perhaps already exist, but where a CAP/CAR van commonly ran in formation with those other vehicle types? (This could however open a massive can of worms where multiple variants of brake van could commonly be seen in that same formation).- What markings and quantity thereof would folks find useful? This is arguably the most difficult piece for me to gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 For me the "Air Piped" branding is the missing bit of the jigsaw since this lettering adorned all of the bauxite era CAR vans. A good few of the Railfreight red gray vans carried this as well, other instructions carried on the vans such as "Return to ..." or "For use with air brake trains only" is the icing on the cake. I understand Railtec concerns regarding what to include and looking at numerous variations it's a minefield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 For me the "Air Piped" branding is the missing bit of the jigsaw since this lettering adorned all of the bauxite era CAR vans. A good few of the Railfreight red gray vans carried this as well, other instructions carried on the vans such as "Return to ..." or "For use with air brake trains only" is the icing on the cake. I understand Railtec concerns regarding what to include and looking at numerous variations it's a minefield. Do you have links to images which show all of those markings which you'd to see on a pack? (And if the same markings varied in design / alignment, please include those as well). I'm thinking specifically "Air Piped", as many variations of "Return to..." and "For use with air brake trains only" might be a good starter pack. I really would need to see photos so I can get as close to the real things as poss. I'd love to have spare time to trawl the likes of Bartlett and elsewhere, but regrettably I just don't have this luxury so the more detail you can provide, the easier it will be for me to make a pack for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Do you have links to images which show all of those markings which you'd to see on a pack? (And if the same markings varied in design / alignment, please include those as well). I'm thinking specifically "Air Piped", as many variations of "Return to..." and "For use with air brake trains only" might be a good starter pack. I really would need to see photos so I can get as close to the real things as poss. I'd love to have spare time to trawl the likes of Bartlett and elsewhere, but regrettably I just don't have this luxury so the more detail you can provide, the easier it will be for me to make a pack for you. My info and pictures come from searching Mr Bartlett's site, you'll be aware of those, a quick Google/Flickr search and memories from my career(not reliable!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick G Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 My info and pictures come from searching Mr Bartlett's site, you'll be aware of those, a quick Google/Flickr search and memories from my career(not reliable!). Yes Paul Bartlett's site has lots of inspiration... https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakediag507 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I think the biggest challenge lies in my belief that the markings on these could vary significantly, even within sub-type - That is very true. Also in most instances with the BR converted brake vans each individual van would differ from side to side due to the positioning of the 3 Air pipes exiting the cabin. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Thanks for the link. The images on Bartlett are obviously small which makes the would-be task of trying to fathom correct lettering sizes that more challenging. Does anyone have an assortment of decent enough res images that they can post?What would people like a typical sheet to look like? I could try to second-guess what the majority would like but there's a strong risk of, "...but I'd only use 40% of that sheet", so I really need to be guided for everyone's benefit.Most folks know that I have a 1001 plates spinning at any one time, and as much as I'd love to take a few hours out to do a Google/Flickr search in the hope of finding images that might contain what you have in mind (and that's before I get to the design stage), it's unfortunately just not practical and probably won't happen. All too often in the past when someone has asked for something I've been told "there are plenty of images on Google" and taken valuable time to design something, it's turned out to be different to the images that have been forthcoming after the event. If you can be as specific as possible in what you would like to see and make my task as pain-free as poss by helping me help you, I can look to schedule something in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) Thanks for the link. The images on Bartlett are obviously small which makes the would-be task of trying to fathom correct lettering sizes that more challenging. Does anyone have an assortment of decent enough res images that they can post? Excuse me, you are a professional, profit driven company. Why not pay for a few downloads if my deliberately small images aren't suitable for you. My collection took 50 years to accumulate and cost a small fortune to acquire - fortunately my lifetime mate wasn't just understanding she was also willing to sub it! Photos taken from one end of the country to another on film. Not a cheap hobby! I realised only fairly recently that close ups of the lettering would be in so much demand, but now it is very difficult to get close to the subjects now I can use digital to max out taking photographs. By the way one of your VAA is a VCA Paul Edited August 30, 2018 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) I've never actually sat down to work out what my Railtec hourly take-home rate would be (and I'd dread to think given the consistent 80+hr weeks), but I'd doubt it would vaguely enter into the realms of a "profit driven company" on a par with anything from John Lewis to even the kebab shop. It sustains a living in conjunction with other sources, yes. When modellers ask me to leverage specialist graphic design and commercial printing skills to design a topic that I ultimately charge pocket money for (and maybe sell <10 packs a year of), then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for modellers in a forum to help me help them and provide photographic help in doing so from free sources around the web. I wasn't suggesting they post higher res images from your collection, but intended to invite other sources. And I'll mention nothing of the multiple 5-figure sum of the cost of the printing machinery and maintenance costs thereof just so I can provide such a specialist service and product, ultimately born out of a hobby that started not cheaply and quickly entered into the realms of astronomical expense.Thanks for the heads-up re VAA. Edited August 30, 2018 by railtec-models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I've never actually sat down to work out what my hourly take-home rate would be, but I'd doubt it would vaguely enter into the realms of a "profit driven company" on a par with anything from John Lewis to even the kebab shop. It sustains a living in conjunction with other sources, yes. When modellers ask me to leverage specialist graphic design and commercial printing skills to design a topic that I ultimately charge pocket money for (and maybe sell <10 packs a year of), then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for modellers in a forum to help me help them and provide photographic help in doing so from free sources around the web. I wasn't suggesting they post higher res images from your collection, but intended to invite other sources. And I'll mention nothing of the multiple 5-figure sum of the cost of the printing machinery and maintenance costs thereof just so I can provide such a specialist service and product, ultimately born out of a hobby that started not cheaply and quickly entered into the realms of astronomical expense. Thanks for the heads-up re VAA. I have no problem in someone getting a download and passing it on - I cannot prevent that, nor as many commercial organisations do asking for higher res. when my scans go back to the days before domestic broadband was available. But I do dislike being taken for granted. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazjones1711 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 These are Replica railways rub down transfers ,if they are of use , I can send them to you , there are two sets on the sheet both the same number! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 It would seem the most common lettering is "AIR PIPED" in black the same size as the CAR and B95xxxx, this appears on the veranda end but also in many cases under the ducket. The other most common wording is "TO WORK ON(or WITH) AIR-BRAKED TRAINS ONLY" this lettering is smaller than the standard spread over 3 lines. I have found only one van in preservation but it's unique in the lettering department so not a reliable vehicle to copy, it's on the Chasewater. To Paul a thankyou for your hard work, ever considered putting your work in book format? Some of us quite like good old fashioned printed books. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I have no problem in someone getting a download and passing it on - I cannot prevent that, nor as many commercial organisations do asking for higher res. when my scans go back to the days before domestic broadband was available. But I do dislike being taken for granted. Paul I'm struggling to join the dots between modellers seeking help with CAR transfers, subsequently being invited to socialise any images they may know of and describe what a would-be pack should look like, and a sentiment of being taken for granted. On the contrary I was under the impression there generally seems to be a lot of positive energy around your collection. There are 1000s of unsung (in my opinion) heroes who post wonderfully detailed images on the likes of Flickr/Smugmug spanning multiple eras which are invaluable in bringing authenticity for everyone to enjoy. We could ask why do they do it. Commercial gain, recognition, historical record or simply just enjoyment of sharing and promoting a hobby? I wonder if they would feel like they've been taken for granted if they were to learn that their images have helped move the modelling community forward and ultimately helped modellers enjoy their hobby that little bit more, even if they may not directly benefit themselves - yet. I sometimes post images online of complete rakes just for the sheer pleasure of sharing, and the more people who can enjoy them, the better. I don't expect anything in return, my own sentiment being that it's all part of an ecosystem which helps us all. Besides having my upper torso in the bowels of a printer for much of today, I've had cause to leverage some great online resources on Flickr, some of them members of RMWeb. Are they expecting to be paid a fee, publically recognised in some way and should I pass that on to customers? But, that's straying off topic. Luckily I've just remembered that I have this rather informative reference from Eric Gent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) IMG_20180830_205301.jpg These are Replica railways rub down transfers ,if they are of use , I can send them to you , there are two sets on the sheet both the same number! Thanks Baz. It's ok - I'm good with the dimensions of the data panels as I've taken a tape measure to some of them (in horizontal snow in Middle Earth in some cases). It's more the dimensions of some of the more unique markings as well as proportions on a sheet which are the key pieces right now. Good on Replica for making those in dry rub-on (a process which costs a small fortune), though I am curious as to how well a rub-on transfer copes with crossing the vertical planks of a vehicle such as a brake van. The intent would be for me to make these as standard waterslide. Edited August 30, 2018 by railtec-models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) Speaking of Flickr. 20212 waits at Fazakerley to return with a brake van to Garston on 20th November 1984 by Jjm2009, on Flickr Edited September 24, 2018 by Porcy Mane 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 It would seem the most common lettering is "AIR PIPED" in black the same size as the CAR and B95xxxx, this appears on the veranda end but also in many cases under the ducket. The other most common wording is "TO WORK ON(or WITH) AIR-BRAKED TRAINS ONLY" this lettering is smaller than the standard spread over 3 lines. I have found only one van in preservation but it's unique in the lettering department so not a reliable vehicle to copy, it's on the Chasewater. Thanks Bob - this helps point me more in a good direction of figuring out what I should sit down and design that modellers would find useful. Completely agree re taking many preserved examples with a very large grain of salt in terms of faithfulness to original in-service markings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 To Paul a thankyou for your hard work, ever considered putting your work in book format? Some of us quite like good old fashioned printed books. Because they have been on the website such suggestions have been rejected, most recently despite a lead from one of my colleagues - Trev Mann - whom has had several books published. He knows that I could do pre-nat wagons better than him (and have a colour collection from a deceased friend which would also add a number of late 60s colour photos). I've done a few Blurbs for myself. Not for railways but I always make Bonusprint albums up for my overseas wildlife trips. I totally agree books have their place. Paul Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 For those who have asked, pack(s) for brake vans are still in development. Given the mass variation in detail they obviously take a long time to design. Meanwhile, the most helpful Steven Clements has done a decent thing by recently uploading numerous reasonably hi-res images to Flickr for everyone to enjoy to their heart's content. The section on brake vans begins at the link below: https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/43644553344/in/photostream/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47406 Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Here's a few Brake Van pics with close-ups.... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Speaking of Flickr. 20212 waits to return with a brake van to Garston on 20th November 1984 by Jjm2009, on Flickr 404 Error on the link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 Here's a few Brake Van pics with close-ups.... 89-07-04 B955061 Llj.jpg 89-07-04 B955061 Llj - Copy.jpg 90-01-36 B954627 CAR 140190.jpg 90-01-36 B954627 CAR 140190 - Copy.jpg 90-01-37 B955136 CAR Toton 140190.jpg 90-01-37 B955136 CAR Toton 140190 - Copy.jpg 90-01-38 B954779 CAR 140190.jpg 90-01-38 B954779 CAR 140190 - Copy.jpg 90-01-39 CAR Toton 140190.jpg 90-01-39 CAR Toton 140190 - Copy.jpg 91-01-23 CAR B955066 York 140191.jpg 91-01-23 CAR B955066 York 140191 - Copy.jpg Fantastic stuff; those are most helpful. Thank-you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) Here's a few Brake Van pics with close-ups.... Lovely set of pics. I do like an LMS type duckett on a BR style van. Pity Hornby chose that prototype when they introduced their Air Brake variant but they do have the habit choosing prototypes from phots in Eric Gents book. 404 Error on the link A simple text string google for "20212 waits to return with a brake van to Garston on 20th November 1984" would have indicated to this page where you will see that the flickr contributor is re-scanning his images to replace with higher resolution content. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/albums/72157631992610538 Original link now sorted. (but for how long , I can not say). Edited September 24, 2018 by Porcy Mane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Evening all, I am looking for transfers, data panels, numbers and CAR lettering to detail some BR 20t air braked brake vans. I have looked around the usual websites but can't seem to find anything suitable. I could be missing them of course, ant one have any ideas? Thank you. Heya Nick (and all), it may be of interest if still required, but I've just released the pack below in 7mm. I should imagine that a similar 4mm counterpart won't be too far off: http://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=3650 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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