which 4mm r-t-r wagons represent pre 1923 types

[1ngram]

Admin: don't know where to post this other than in Miscellany.  Please reposition if somewhere else is more appropriate.  Many thanks

 

I'm not normally a 4mm/00 modeller but I want to do a cameo pre-grouping WW1 era yard in my existing GNSR/H0 fiddle yard.  Is there a thread on RMweb or anywhere else that identifies which (if any) r-t-r wagons represent pre-1923 types, esp open wagons?

[Andy Y]

It's a question about models so I've moved it to Modelling Questions.

[Quarryscapes]

Oxford's North British 4 Plank. That's about it that I can think of. 

[Londontram]

I'm sure there was a thread on this question.about a month or so back but I can't remember where or its title perhaps someone else can recall.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Londontram

[Compound2632]

I'm sure there was a thread on this question.about a month or so back but I can't remember where orbits title perhaps someone else can recall.

 

I've ranted on several. Here's one.

[dube]

The RTR manufactures don’t seem too interested in wagons that didn’t last into the BR era, Hornby put new chassis on their 3 4 and 6 plank wagons however it’s a bit too modern for the wagons, there’s also the Dapol 5 and 7 plank 9ft wheelbase wagons although I’m not sure if these are accurate, maybe oxford rail will bring out some 1907 RCH types, there also doing some early 12 ton fuel wagons

Edited October 3, 2018 by dube

[Poor Old Bruce]

Bachmann do the Midland Railway design of Goods Brake Van (the one without duckets, the LMS added them).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Then, rather improbably, the Lowmac in Hornby's range. The basis of this design was the GCR's Mac N introduced 1913. Remove any hints of vacuum brake gear, substitute 10 to 11mm eight spoked wheels for the soiid discs, repaint. Very uncommon wagon of course...

[1ngram]

I suppose what I am asking is which models represent 9 foot wheelbase open wagons with wooden(?) solebars and fixed(?) ends.  I intend painting these as ROD wagons but there are only a couple of photos of these in Aves books and, to my untutored eye, its difficult to determine which the photos are of.

[HonestTom]

I would say your best bet there is Dapol's 5 plank 9-ft wheelbase open wagon (the unpainted version is reference a015).

[The Johnster]

Then, rather improbably, the Lowmac in Hornby's range. The basis of this design was the GCR's Mac N introduced 1913. Remove any hints of vacuum brake gear, substitute 10 to 11mm eight spoked wheels for the soiid discs, repaint. Very uncommon wagon of course...

 

In the same vein, GW gunpowder vans and Iron Minks, which lasted a very long time in service.  The Bachmann Southern Pill Box brake van is, I believe, a 1913 SECR design, and the SECR is the origin of the 4 wheeled B and PMV vans as well.  

[Nile]

 The Bachmann Southern Pill Box brake van is, I believe, a 1913 SECR design,

 

I think you've wandered into the realm of fantasy there.

As the OP is modelling the GNSR brake vans of other companies aren't going to be of much use.

If you are after accurate models of pre-group wagons then kits are the only real option.

If you are not too fussy then there are a few RTR models that can pass as pre-group, such as those new open wagons from Hornby.

Apart from the Oxford wagon mentioned earlier most RTR wagons in pre-grouping liveries are bogus.

Bachmann are producing Warflat wagons, are they doing the WW1 version?

[Dave John]

On the bright side Smiths do a GNoS Tarpaulin sheet. Might cover a multitude of sins .... 

[Nile]

I like your thinking. Wagons would have been pooled in this period, so a fleet of generic open wagons and a selection of tarpaulins to cover them would give a degree of variety.

As for vans this Hornby model is a pre-grouping design (Hull & Barnsley) but appears in many other liveries.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/401991/Hornby_R013_PO04_Fine_Fish_Van_E81010_Pre_owned_Imperfect_box/StockDetail.aspx

[The Johnster]

I think you've wandered into the realm of fantasy there.

As the OP is modelling the GNSR brake vans of other companies aren't going to be of much use.

If you are after accurate models of pre-group wagons then kits are the only real option.

If you are not too fussy then there are a few RTR models that can pass as pre-group, such as those new open wagons from Hornby.

Apart from the Oxford wagon mentioned earlier most RTR wagons in pre-grouping liveries are bogus.

Bachmann are producing Warflat wagons, are they doing the WW1 version?

 

Sorry, missed the GNoS predelictions of the OP.  

[Il Grifone]

I believe the ancient Tri-ang van is an L & Y prototype and the matching open wagon is a 1907 RCH side door. Accuracy is not 100% of course....

[1ngram]

Clarification:  I model the GNSR in H0.  The current query relates to a ROD cameo I'm building in 00 (in the fiddle yard of my GNSR layout) and for which I'm trying to loocate suitable WW1 era wagons.  The ROD took over masses of PO and company wagons, both open and box, and had many thousands of others manufactured for them during the war.

[HonestTom]

I believe the ancient Tri-ang van is an L & Y prototype and the matching open wagon is a 1907 RCH side door. Accuracy is not 100% of course....

 

Yep. See the second photo down here. It needs the addition of a roof hatch (?) and what looks like a tarpaulin, plus some sort of shelf-type thing (?) at the top of the doors. The chassis could do with replacing with a wooden solebar example. I'm planning such a conversion myself.

Edited October 9, 2018 by HonestTom

[Compound2632]

I model the GNSR in H0. 

 

I am seriously impressed by the sheer esotericness (if that's a word) of this. What are you doing for the nine-spoke wagon wheels?

[1ngram]

I use a variety of 10.5mm spoked wheels for my wagons.  I'm not pedantic about the number of spokes but 9 spoke can be bought here: http://steameramodels.com/wheels.htm

 

My layout is circa 1917 so I add a variety of other locos in H0 to my layout representing "foreigners" commandeered to assist in shunting for the fleet at "Dundarg" and delivering long distance trains from the south.  I have two scratchbuilt GNSR locos and a couple of other scratchbuilt locos from further south, one an 0-8-0 shunter from Kent.  I have a variety of 6-wheel GNSR coaches using Worsley Works brass etches, GNSR vans from 3D printing and resin, brass etch GNSR brake vans and scratch built plastic opens to GNSR drawings using brass etch chassis produced by the British 1/87 Society.  If you look in the Railways of Scotland section on this Forum you will see photos of some of my stuff.

Edited October 5, 2018 by 1ngram

[Il Grifone]

Yep. See the second photo down here. It needs the addition of a roof hatch (?) and what looks like a tarpaulin, plus some sort of shelf-type thing (?) at the top of the doors. The chassis could do with replacing with a wooden solebar example. I'm planning such a conversion myself.

 

The wagons are of Trackmaster origin (which shows their age!). Originally they had a die cast underframe representing a wooden solebar/grease box design with a 9' 6" wheelbase (which is not really correct for an RCH wagon). This will fit the later Tri-ang versions. Originally they were moulded in cellulose acetate which has invariably warped.

[Guy Rixon]

The wagons are of Trackmaster origin (which shows their age!). Originally they had a die cast underframe representing a wooden solebar/grease box design with a 9' 6" wheelbase (which is not really correct for an RCH wagon). This will fit the later Tri-ang versions. Originally they were moulded in cellulose acetate which has invariably warped.

 

Pedantry: 9'6" wheelbase is not right for an RCH-pattern mineral wagon, but IIRC the RCH recommended it for mechanise wagons at one stage. I doubt that many PO merchandise wagons were built in that period.

[Il Grifone]

Pedantry: 9'6" wheelbase is not right for an RCH-pattern mineral wagon, but IIRC the RCH recommended it for mechanise wagons at one stage. I doubt that many PO merchandise wagons were built in that period.

 

9' 6" never was a very common wheelbase. There is a Cambrian design of open wagon, but IIRC it differs considerably from the Tri-ang model.

 

Pooling only began in 1917 with a limited number of companies, though I believe back loading was permitted from an earlier date.

 

A bit of relevant political waffle, (it took until WW II for P.O. mineral wagons to be pooled)

 

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1915-02-17/debates/67a9b146-b4eb-45cc-a158-47db9d9016f7/RailwayWagons(Pooling)

 

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1918/apr/18/pooling-railway-wagons

Edited October 7, 2018 by Il Grifone

[HonestTom]

The wagons are of Trackmaster origin (which shows their age!). Originally they had a die cast underframe representing a wooden solebar/grease box design with a 9' 6" wheelbase (which is not really correct for an RCH wagon). This will fit the later Tri-ang versions. Originally they were moulded in cellulose acetate which has invariably warped.

 

I was thinking of using a Dapol 9ft wheelbase chassis, just because that's what I have to hand. I also see that my link in the above post didn't work, so here it is again.

[Buhar]

I've ranted on several. Here's one.

 

Feel free to rant some more.  I always learn something when you do.