kevo Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Hi just like to ask has any one tried fitting a stay alive in to a tts sound 08 Hornby shunter its a laisdcc, stay a live with 2 wires blue & black do they go to the same blue and black on the decoder ? any advice please . kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul80 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Could be wrong and often am, but i didnt think the TTS decoders suported stay alive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Blue wire, probably yes. Black wire on decoder, definitely no, that would risk letting out magic smoke from something. You will need to find the negative on the decoder after the rectifier - somewhere in the middle of the decoder. Does it work ? Anyone's guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 9, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2018 Blue wire, probably yes. Black wire on decoder, definitely no, that would risk letting out magic smoke from something. You will need to find the negative on the decoder after the rectifier - somewhere in the middle of the decoder. Does it work ? Anyone's guess. There was an article somewhere (Hornby forum?) about adding SA to a Hornby R8249 decoder (which I believe is what the TTS what developed from) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 10, 2018 Author Share Posted October 10, 2018 Thanks for the info i did have a look at the Hornby forum but didnt see much only a bit on building your own stay alive i will have another look Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 (edited) This is a lot on the Hornby forum about fitting stay alive to both the R8249 and TTS including pictures. Search on there works better if you use less rather than more in your request. Edit: a search on ‘stay alive’ got me 2 pages of results searching in Title and 27 pages if searching in Content. Make sure you are searching in the forum search box not the site search box. Rob Edited October 10, 2018 by RAFHAAA96 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 10, 2018 Author Share Posted October 10, 2018 thank you rob i will give that another look Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted October 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2018 I have fitted stay-alive to a Hornby TTS decoder in an Bachmann 08. I used an ordinary 2200uF along with the normal diode and resistor. Fitted them in the cab. Made a big difference to the running reliability. I haven't posted any shots but the details of where to attach the wires are here towards the end of this thread. I turned off DC running to ensure it worked. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124592-some-rtr-rolling-stock-for-all-saints-east/page-2 look at post #32 Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 Cheers izzy that is jus what i was hope ing to find a pic of were the wires go . i was just about to give up on that . i am not very tech with electrics but i can follow a pic . my next step is to learn how to switch off the DC on the decoder before i start . my PIKO controller dus not have the the functions to alter the CV'S but i have just brought a NCE cab controll any luck after a read of the manual i can sort that out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Cheers izzy that is jus what i was hope ing to find a pic of were the wires go . i was just about to give up on that . i am not very tech with electrics but i can follow a pic . my next step is to learn how to switch off the DC on the decoder before i start . my PIKO controller dus not have the the functions to alter the CV'S but i have just brought a NCE cab controll any luck after a read of the manual i can sort that out Just follow the manual, you should be able to alter CVs easily. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 Thanks john i took the manual to work with me to day and had a look in my lunch break with a bit of practice i think i will get the hang of it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 Big doom and destruction i had a go at installing the lasdcc stay alive in my tts Hornby o8 and yes it fried it . that a teach me . and Hornby havent released the tts o8 sound for replacement yet . talk about live and learn . any way move ing on i have now replaced the tts 8 pin for a the lasdcc 8 pin with stay alive . i have joined up the the blue and black wires from the decoder to the blue and black on stay alive . loco runs nice and smooth now but the stay alive doint seem to work like were you pick up the loco and wheels still turn . any advice on were i have gone wrong with this . please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 hope this shows what i have done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 Hi Richard yes you are right there , not one of my better days . and slightly wiser after read ing your reply . i think what i did to day has putt me off DIY decoder stuff . there is far more to it than i can take in . but thank you for the tips on zimo or locksound and best left to people in the know like your self . up to this date that is my 3rd tts sound decoder i have wrecked have ing tried fitting them in to different locos that were none sound . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 same thought on that richard i was very glad they were not top notch decoders . thanks 4 the reply's to my groans . i checked out your web site early on . i will certainly keep you in mind when i need work carried out from now on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) DSCF1170.JPGhope this shows what i have done There are some version of Lais decoder where the stay alive function doesn't work despite them having the relevant connections. Edited October 14, 2018 by newbryford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 that is strange to hear . seems hard to understand why they would make a decoder with a function that will not work . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Stay Alive is of course a trade name as is Keep Alive and others, but used similar to how the generic Hoover is to vacuum cleaner but who cares. The thing to remember is if you have a big enough capacitor bank to make any difference to dodgy running over points then you need some in-rush current control circuitry to go with it. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted October 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 15, 2018 I think that it is probably not terribly well understood that unless a very large capacitor storage amount is used then the level of movement produced by a stay-alive is unlikely to be seen, and will also depend on the speed of the loco/current draw of the motor as well as whether sound is also fitted. Recently I have been fitting small packs of tantalum’s, either 3 or 4 220uf (so 660uf/880uf) into some 2mm tank/diesel shunter locos and here movement relative to the speed can be seen. A spoke or so at minimal level up to a whole revolution flat out. A bit like a flywheel effect. With a 4mm Bachman’s 08, now fitted with a Mashima 1833 since the original motor failed, even with an ordinary electrolytic 2200uf being used I can detect no movement at any speed. This has a TTS sound decoder fitted. But I know that the stay-alive is working, because with it the loco runs reliably without stalling or stuttering, where as it was prone to do this before fitting the stay-alive. Most levels of stay-alive are really meant to do just this, keep the decoder/motor alive through tiny periods when power is lost, micro- seconds mostly, but which impact loco performance overall. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I suppose you could rig a pseudo decoder circuit just using just your stay alive and charging circuit with an led(s) and resistor as the motor load (say 20mA apiece), charge up your stay alive then see how long the led(s) take(s) to fade out after the power is pulled. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 have ing shared my o8 tts disaster try ing to fit a stay a live , i made the best out of it by replace ing with a laisdcc 8 pin none sound decoder as i had all ready installed the stay a live in the o8 cab i didnt fancy pulling it a part so i wired it in even if it didnt work nothing to loose . well the 80 ran nice and smooth and silent great i thought . but later on when it got half way across my one and only point on my micro layout it stalled then jerked forwards and backwards till i picked up the loco of the track not sure what caused that ! some sort of surge may be ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 As mentioned above, the most important benefit of the 'stay alive' - retained power system is to keep the microprocessor running and not resetting over every brief interruption of incoming power - even without 'stay alive or a large flywheel, most motors motor have enough inertia to cover the momentary loss ... but by the time their loss becomes noticeable, the micro would have been off / restarted several times .. As a 'demonstratable example' - I have made track-voltage monitors from automotive Voltmeter modules - wit a bridge rectifier in front, and self-powered from the rectifier output ... result is a 3GBP display of track voltage (minus 2 diode drops) .... BUT if I switch ON RAILCOM - the short gap in the signal created fro the response is enough for the display's processor to reset !!! - the result is a 000 display. (A capacitor is needed after the bridge rectifier to maintain the power over the Railcom gap, to keep the display processor alive) Early Sound Decoders used large capacitors and created the inrush problem as the fleet grew - which is where PSX type intelligent breakers help out. The next-most important / desirable feature of a power-retaining system is to stop lights flickering and then enough motor power to move the loco to somewhere where it regains power..... and truly advanced versions then control where they stop has power. Obviously when LED as opposed to filament lighting, and Sound are added - the power demands required are that much higher... A mechanical flywheel obviously helps with the motor continuing - and many years ago there was a dynadrive ?? mechanism which included a clutch. A coreless motor has less inbuilt inertia - but 'more space' for a flywheel to be added. Worm gear drive might show less inertia than other gearing methods - which might allow the whole weight of the loco to be used to increase the inertia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Worm drive is non reversible so if the motor stops the wheels cannot keep it turning. The problem with momentary power loss is the decoder has a switch on voltage that must be reached again before the chip will pass voltage to the motor. A stay alive is designed (in principle) to prevent the motor voltage decaying whilst this restart is happening. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 16, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 16, 2018 have ing shared my o8 tts disaster try ing to fit a stay a live , i made the best out of it by replace ing with a laisdcc 8 pin none sound decoder as i had all ready installed the stay a live in the o8 cab i didnt fancy pulling it a part so i wired it in even if it didnt work nothing to loose . well the 80 ran nice and smooth and silent great i thought . but later on when it got half way across my one and only point on my micro layout it stalled then jerked forwards and backwards till i picked up the loco of the track not sure what caused that ! some sort of surge may be ? A lot of Lais decoders don't work with stay alive despite saying that they do. Lais are pirated copies of other decoders. I keep clear of them. (although there are some on here that like them.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 ...Lais are pirated copies of other decoders... I would be very interested to see proof of that...or is it just hearsay. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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