Identifying a WWI period 0-4-0 loco

[Martin S-C]

I realise this is the modelling area and not the prototype questions but I have asked there already - can anyone please identify the right hand loco in this picture? It was taken in 1918 at Dalmore distillery near Invergordon and at the time the distillery had been requisitioned by the War Ministry and was being used as a base by US sailors to assemble mines for the Northern Barrage. The image shows possibly a hand-over of locos from their crews to US navy personnel.

 

The identity of the Hull & Barnsley loco has been determined as far as is possible.

Many thanks all!

 

 

[Ruston]

I have looked in Industrial Locomotives of Scotland (IRS Handbook N) but can find no reference to Dalmore Distillery as an entry in its own right in Ross and Cromarty, which I presume is the county that Invergordon is in. There is however a reference to the Admiralty Invergordon Dockyard having a line built from Belleport to Dalmore, where the distillery was in use as a Naval Stores Depot, so I guess this must be the place.

 

The only locomotives listed under the entry for the Admiralty Dockyard are three ex-LBSCR 0-6-0T engines, which arrived in 1918 and departed to the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Railway between 1921 and 23.

 

The loco in the photo looks as if it could be either a Dubs, or a Neilson.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Ruston

[Martin S-C]

Dave, yes that's the place. Its still known as Dalmore distillery today. The facility there was part of the Invergordon base/port.

The main thread discussing the WWI military railway facility is here.

Perhaps the HBR engine brought the small industrial as a training loco for the US personnel to learn on?

[Ruston]

Scrub that about it being a Dubs. It appears to have an oval works plate and I think Dubs used diamond-shaped plates.

[doilum]

Could it be a Manning Wardle?

Has their double crankpin wheels and is similar to the one on the Aberford railway

[Ruston]

Could it be a Manning Wardle?

Has their double crankpin wheels and is similar to the one on the Aberford railway

I'm fairly sure that it's not a Manning Wardle. The chimney and the tank don't look right for a MW and the wheels don't look like MW wheels. Black Hawthorn also used double boss wheels, as did some Robert Stephenson locomotives.

[rope runner]

It could be an early 0-4-0 Hunslet 14''. The position and shape of the sandbox would fit with this too.

 

Paul A.

[sir douglas]

something about it doesnt look right for either of the leeds companies, the wheel pattern is just like Neilson, the second boss has a hole in it which the MW's or Hunslets dont and even more the ridge or webbing around the inside of the rim and down the sides of the spokes

 

example, Redruth and chasewater

https://goo.gl/images/NoPafA

[Caledonian]

Can I suggest a Black Hawthorn?

 

Apart from the dome it looks uncommonly like City of Aberdeen, their 912 of 1887. There's an unfrocked photie in Eric Sawford's The Last Days of Industrial Steam p128

 

Or better still, try this one:   https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/2/2c/Im1887v64-p6.jpg

Edited October 14, 2018 by Caledonian

[Martin S-C]

Hm. Pretty close.

 

[Caledonian]

Hm. Pretty close.

 

NH 89505-040T.jpg

 

If you don't have a copy of Sawford, City of Aberdeen [which is preserved at Tanfield] has an identical cab to the Dalmore one, with the exception of square spectacle plates like the exhibition model

[Nick Holliday]

High Level Kit's Black Hawthorn is a close match too.

Taken from their website

[Yarravalleymodeller]

As sir Douglas said the hole in the second boss is indeed an unusual feature. The other thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the odd design of the cab steps. Looks almost like they are a one piece cast step and extra gusset between the buffer beam and cab floor or they've been incorporated into the foot plate valance.

 

Could swear I've seen this feature somewhere else before but can't for the life of me remember where

[Martin S-C]

Yes the steps are an interesting feature. There's a triangular cut out of steel plate welded or bolted to the footplate and rear drawbar (which it reinforces) and then two steps offset, bolted on. You'd need to mount this right foot up first, then left foot to the second step then right foot into the cab. Its very ergonomic but not altogether intuitive, especially when dismounting.

[Ruston]

It does look a little like a Black Hawthorn but those wheels aren't right.

 

I think it's a Robert Stephenson loco. The wheels look very like those on Tichborne, an 0-6-0T (RS w/n 2011 of 1872) that worked on Lord Carlisle's railway. The cab steps are arranged similarly, too.

 

This led me to google this site: :http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/cape_breton/mining_history.htm

 

Scroll down the above page to find, specifically this loco (see on above link for larger image).

Robert Stephenson W/n 1727 of 1866. It has the same cab steps and wheels as the loco in question. The tank shape is alo similar. They obviously aren't the same loco but there are enough similar features to be able to say that our mystery loco was built by Robert Stephenson & Co. Ltd.

 

The thing now is to identify it with an owner and a works number. The IRS handbook lists only three RSlocomotives for the whole of Scotland and all three are 0-6-0STS, so that's no help but then, as I mentioned previously, it doesn't list the location. So the locomotive has been missed by the compilers of the handbook but I suppose if it was just there for the war and not a long-term thing it could easily have gone unrecorded.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Ruston

[Yarravalleymodeller]

On 16/10/2018 at 00:53, Martin S-C said:

Yes the steps are an interesting feature. There's a triangular cut out of steel plate welded or bolted to the footplate and rear drawbar (which it reinforces) and then two steps offset, bolted on. You'd need to mount this right foot up first, then left foot to the second step then right foot into the cab. Its very ergonomic but not altogether intuitive, especially when dismounting.

 

Finally realised where I've seen something vaguely similar, if you kindly ask google for a look at the fox, Walker and co 0-6-0st "karlskoga" preserved in Sweden you'll see it's not a million miles away.

 

It is still a niggling annoyance that this loco hasn't been definitively identified. 

 

 

 

[Stanton]

The 0-4-0ST has all the characteristics of one built by Charles I'Anson & Co of Darlington. Some accounts say they built six locos between 1875 and 1881, but the Industrial Railway Society has only found definite proof of three. There is a good photo of one of them on page 119 of their Durham Handbook, Part 1 (2006). It has the same type of spokes, and with hollow dummy boss, as the Invergordon loco, small splashers with a sandbox between them, the same shape of saddle tank with a relatively tall filler, a slightly raised firebox with the safety valves mounted on it, and, most significant of all, identical cab footsteps. Of the three known locos, the most likely candidate would be that at South Moor Colliery, Stanley, Co. Durham. It was sent to Hawthorn Leslie for major repairs in 1903 and the oval worksplate on the cabside of the Invergordon loco, with wording fully across the middle and round the outer edges, is the same style that Hawthorn Leslie used until the early 1900s, so may be their rebuild plate (I'Anson plates were more circular and were engraved, not cast). The loco was disposed of by the colliery at an unknown date, so it may have been requisitioned by the War Office, or at least loaned to them. Quite a number of industrial locos were, but records aren't complete. It was probably becoming underpowered for the work at South Moor anyway - all their other locos were six-coupled. A new 16" Hawthorn Leslie was bought in 1912 which may have relegated the I'Anson to spare loco. The only photo I have seen of it at South Moor is in a general view of the Louisa Pit yard c.1910 (http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/11111?SearchType=Param&CatRef=D%2FCL+27%2F277&ImagesOnly=Y&ItemID=165086&ImageID=200027). It is poor quality, but you can see that sides have been added to the original weatherboard cab and there is what appears to be a toolbox alongside the smokebox. Both of those features can be seen on the Invergordon loco.

Photos of I'Anson locos are very rare, so this is an interesting find. It is also the first known case of one being used outside the North East of England.

[davknigh]

Given that the engine was located in Scotland the odds would be in favour of it being a Scottish builder. While the tanks are very different there are some similarities with this Neilson http://highlevelkits.co.uk/y5page.htm

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Ruston]

11 minutes ago, davknigh said:

Given that the engine was located in Scotland the odds would be in favour of it being a Scottish builder. While the tanks are very different there are some similarities with this Neilson http://highlevelkits.co.uk/y5page.htm

 

Cheers,

 

David

Apart from it being an 0-4-0ST, what similarities are you seeing?

[davknigh]

4 hours ago, Ruston said:

Apart from it being an 0-4-0ST, what similarities are you seeing?

The way the cab is set up, the frames ( what you can see of them) are similar, the smokebox front appears to be similar. It's more based on an English engine working in Scotland seems unlikely, especially a small 0-4-0 ST.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Ruston]

8 hours ago, davknigh said:

The way the cab is set up, the frames ( what you can see of them) are similar, the smokebox front appears to be similar. It's more based on an English engine working in Scotland seems unlikely, especially a small 0-4-0 ST.

 

Cheers,

 

David

Frames are frames and cabs on Neilson's of that sort of age seem to have been absent or made up in the workshops of later owners, from what I've seen. The GER Neilsons seem to have all had cabs but were they delivered with them or did the GER fit them? I don't know but there's no similarity here - the cabs on the GER Neilsons were flat across the width with the curve to allow rain to run off being fore and aft. The cab on the mystery loco here isn't like that that and runs from either side of the centre line, as do most roofs.

 

Because a loco worked in Scotland there's no reason that it had to be built there. There are lots of examples of Scottish-built engines working in in England and vice-versa. Locomotive builders in Scotland and England sold locomotives around the world.

[Stanton]

Whilst it is true that Scottish industrial concerns tended to favour local builders there are hundreds of examples of English industrial steam locos, of all sizes, in Scotland, acquired both new and second-hand, and the biggest single supplier of industrial diesel locos was Ruston & Hornsby, of Lincoln. However, this photo was not taken at a Scottish industrial business, it is at a site being used as a military base in the middle of a World War. The War Office requisitioned locos from all over the UK and sent them wherever they were required. Of the four other locos at Invergordon, three were "Terriers" from the LBSCR in the South of England, and the fourth was the Hull & Barnsley loco shown in this photo, so it would not be surprising to see a loco from Co. Durham there as well.

 

The cab has been extensively modified, although it does incorporate the original weatherboard (you can see the join in the upper cab front, just above where the safety valve lever enters). The lower side sheets may even be replacements fitted by Hawthorn Leslie, as they are of their pattern, and are shorter than the original I'Anson sheets, which stretched to the saddle tank. The cab steps are original, and provide the best indication of the builder. Offset steps were common on 19th century tender locos, but far less so on tank engines. Relatively few builders fitted them, but examples can be found from Beyer Peacock, Black Hawthorn, Robert Stephenson and Sharp Stewart, and also the North Eastern Railway (Gateshead works), and probably others as well. However, the only builder known to have fitted this cast pattern with the triangular cut-out was I'Anson. Taken in conjunction with the wheels and the other design features, I'Anson ticks all the boxes and any differences could be explained by alterations made during the course of what, by the date of this photo, would be a 40 year life span. It is a closer fit than any of the other builders suggested in this thread, although whether it is the South Moor loco, or another, possibly unrecorded, example is, I agree, open to question.