Charging to use a credir card

[sharris]

I get it that debit cards have their uses, credit cards less so.

 

 

With a credit card you get more chance of getting your money back in the case of disputed transactions. 

I have mine set to pay off the balance by direct debit each month so there's no interest and I can use it as if it were a debit card with the added transaction protection - I'd always use the credit card rather than debit for on-line purchases and travel bookings, but mostly use the debit card in shops, unless it's a high price item and I want a few weeks grace to pay for it. 

 

When I was in Brazil with SWMBO a couple of years ago we had about 5 credit/debit cards between us, and it was always something of a lottery as to which one would work in a particular place. 

[sharris]

 

Maybe I'm a bad person for using contactless on buses rather than scrabbling for change*, but I rather assume that they wouldn't be offering it if the costs were too high.

 

If you're on a London bus, you wouldn't get very far with the correct change - it's either an Oyster card, a contactless Debit/Credit card or season ticket/bus pass - they haven't taken cash since 2014. 

[Coryton]

If you're on a London bus, you wouldn't get very far with the correct change - it's either an Oyster card, a contactless Debit/Credit card or season ticket/bus pass - they haven't taken cash since 2014. 

 

Well yes. But I don't live there.

 

Here in "the provinces" we either take a more enlightened attitude towards those who would rather use cash or are stuck in the dark ages, depending on how you look at it.

 

On the other hand, if I used the Oyster card equivalent on Cardiff Bus*, I could check my balance using NFC on my phone, which I don't believe is possible with an Oyster card.

 

And paper day tickets are checked with a QR code reader on the ticket machine rather than the driver's eyeballs.

 

We even let children pay reduced fares without having to jump through hoops beforehand.

 

* I don't because there is no point as for me a contactless card is just as good.

[AndrewC]

Well yes. But I don't live there.

 

Here in "the provinces" we either take a more enlightened attitude towards those who would rather use cash or are stuck in the dark ages, depending on how you look at it.

 

On the other hand, if I used the Oyster card equivalent on Cardiff Bus*, I could check my balance using NFC on my phone, which I don't believe is possible with an Oyster card.

 

 

Oyster app does card balance, and top up. 

 

And yes you leek waving lot are stuck in the dark ages.   *

 

 

 

 

 

* for those who have had a humour bypass this was a gentle extraction of urine in a non-serious way. 

[Coryton]

Oyster app does card balance, and top up. 

 

Yes but - so far as I know - it doesn't read directly from the Oyster card itself.

 

 

And yes you leek waving lot are stuck in the dark ages.   *

 

Fair enough. After all we still have Pacers.

 

And I can't think where they got the inspiration for the name "Transport for Wales" from.

[melmerby]

I've got a contactless card for buses.

It's called an old scrotes bus pass!

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Are Oyster any further forward with replacing them with the "ITSO" standard card that everyone else uses?

(The ITSO card was the standard agreed between bus operators and card issuing authorities) https://www.itso.org.uk/

 

Keith

[meil]

Are Oyster any further forward with replacing them with the "ITSO" standard card that everyone else uses?

(The ITSO card was the standard agreed between bus operators and card issuing authorities) https://www.itso.org.uk/

 

Keith

Standardisation!!This is the public sector you are referring to here. You'll be wanting an integrated transport network next.

[Coryton]

Standardisation!!This is the public sector you are referring to here. You'll be wanting an integrated transport network next.

 

Well to be honest I'd take London's integrated network and a non-standard card protocol over what we have in the rest of the UK.

 

Anyway - standards are important - that's why there are so many of them.

[rab]

I paid mine a few days ago Three weeks ago ( Personal Mastercard ) and there was no charge.

 

Keith

I tried to pay car tax with a debit card,

and the card reader in the Post Office

saw it as a credit card and wouldn't

accept it.

I tried at another Post Office and

the same thing happened, but they

managed to find a work around.

 

I've used the card since in

a couple of shops with no trouble

[E3109]

Although I'm not a fan of cards, I do use my debit card occasionally for some things.

As I said above, I withdraw most of it in cash around pay day but if I'm purchasing, say, a flight I ensure that I withdraw less that month to cover it. Sometimes I'll buy a loco from Hattons etc by card and make the same allowances on my account, although to be fair I'd rather call in there if poss and just pay cash.

 

I used to pay cash for my flights at the local travel agency but since the advent of Skyscanner and so on, they just can't come anywhere near the prices to be found online, which is a shame because I do prefer the personal touch. But £150 difference is a lot to pay for that so, sadly I generally buy fights online nowadays.

 

Managing my money in this way has meant that my bank charges have disappeared, as I can't possibly go overdrawn accidentally due to forgetting about a DD or SO.

I realise this may not be for everybody, but it works for me. I do have online banking access which I use for checking on my accounts, but I rarely use it for paying for things, in fact the bank gave me this keypad contraption that I've never used. I think it's required to pay anyone who's 'new' to your account although it's not needed for paying an existing recipient.

 

Each to his own, but I find the proliferation of card payments to have potential for becoming rather sinister in some respects. I don't want the banks knowing what my buying habits are, I don't have anything to hide but that doesn't mean I want third parties to know what things I like to buy. It's all a bit too 'Total Recall' or 'Demolition Man' for my liking and even now, people are queuing up for microchip implants in Sweden, in lieu of a smartphone.. That's just nuts.

 

Relating to that, there was an American short story type film I saw on tv a few years ago, basically society had gone completely cashless and a guy at a petrol station had his hand chopped off, rather than his wallet stolen, as wallets were no longer of any use.

 

If anyone happens t know the name of that film, I'd be very grateful if you could let me know! Been trying to find it for ages.

 

Once again, apologies for the slightly off-topic post. Hope you don't mind.

[melmerby]

I tried to pay car tax with a debit card,

and the card reader in the Post Office

saw it as a credit card and wouldn't

accept it.

I tried at another Post Office and

the same thing happened, but they

managed to find a work around.

 

I've used the card since in

a couple of shops with no trouble

That suggests a faulty Post Office system not recognizing the code for a debit card.

The fact that it worked elsewhere reinforces that probability.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Well to be honest I'd take London's integrated network and a non-standard card protocol over what we have in the rest of the UK.

 

 

Sorry for going OT

The West Midlands isn't too bad as is getting closer to what the smoke has with the TfWM initiatives (everything under one banner and ultimately responsible to the mayor.etc.)

It helps having one major bus operator (NXWM) which is much, much larger than the nearest rival (Diamond/Rotala) so most of the routes are already integrated with each other to provide easy connexions.

The latest is painting the buses the same colour (guess what - they're red!) with just the company logos to distinguish them and sharing of routes and ticketing so all the tickets from one operator are valid on the other's buses.

 

In contrast I find the NE (Nexus) somewhat lacking and cannot even provide a bus map of the City Centre of Newcastle (I've tried in the Nexus shops but I'm told there isn't such a thing!)

Go Ahead, Stagecoach & Arriva definitely don't provide an integrated system, which I assume is left from the bus de-regulation fiasco.

 

Keith

Edited October 26, 2018 by melmerby

[YesTor]

Each to his own, but I find the proliferation of card payments to have potential for becoming rather sinister in some respects. I don't want the banks knowing what my buying habits are, I don't have anything to hide but that doesn't mean I want third parties to know what things I like to buy. It's all a bit too 'Total Recall' or 'Demolition Man' for my liking and even now, people are queuing up for microchip implants in Sweden, in lieu of a smartphone.. That's just nuts.

 

Relating to that, there was an American short story type film I saw on tv a few years ago, basically society had gone completely cashless and a guy at a petrol station had his hand chopped off, rather than his wallet stolen, as wallets were no longer of any use.

 

If anyone happens t know the name of that film, I'd be very grateful if you could let me know! Been trying to find it for ages.

 

Once again, apologies for the slightly off-topic post. Hope you don't mind.

 

Yes, my thoughts too, and didn't mention something similar myself for fear of being off-topic too.  Although the 'cashless society' concept may well be more 'convenient', all it actually does is place the banks and governments in even more powerful positions above us mere citizens than ever before, in effect creating what could be regarded as a 'Nineteen-Eighty-Four' (George Orwell) style society.  Think about it, one 'wrong move', or more accurately one perceived 'wrong move' and your bank could effectively cripple an individual at the touch of a button.  A very dangerous area to blindly walk into for anyone that values their 'freedom', and as you correctly point out those queuing up to be to be micro-chipped seem only too willing to blindly hand themselves over to corporate power - hook, line and sinker.  Both insane and dangerous.

Edited October 27, 2018 by YesTor

[sharris]

Sorry for going OT

The West Midlands isn't too bad...

It helps having one major bus operator (NXWM) which is much, much larger than the nearest rival (Diamond/Rotala) so most of the routes are already integrated with each other to provide easy connexions.

The latest is painting the buses the same colour (guess what - they're red!)

 

Keith

I remember when I was a child we often had trips to Birmingham to visit various relatives - back then all the area's buses were run by Midland Red, and the buses were, of course, red.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Red

[AndrewC]

Yes but - so far as I know - it doesn't read directly from the Oyster card itself.

 

It doesn't need to. The Oyster balance and transactions are all stored server side. Only a token containing a copy of the balance resides on the actual card. The only reason why I still use Oyster and not contactless or ApplePay is I sometimes need to submit my journeys as work expenses. Oyster makes that easy. 

 

Getting back to the cashless aspect of how the world is going, there will always be pros and cons. Like using a mobile phone, the provider knows who you called, when, where you are, etc. If this scares you like the thought of a bank knowing what you spent and where, you should be using coins in a phone box. It's a trade off. Convenience against anonymity. 

[ejstubbs]

The only reason why I still use Oyster and not contactless or ApplePay is I sometimes need to submit my journeys as work expenses.

 

You can register your contactless card with TfL and get a record of your trips, including the amount charged, via their web site.  You can even do it retrospectively, in a sort of: "That debit card that was used for a few journeys last week?  That was me," way.

 

I've never used Oyster so I don't know how its system compares with what you can see online using a contactless card but I would be surprised if it's much different.

 

I assume it would work the same with Apple Pay and Google Pay, since AIUI they still use the payment card details for the actual financial transaction. (I don't know the technical details of how the apps work but I would imagine that, fundamentally, they're just a different way of presenting the card details contactlessly.)

Edited October 27, 2018 by ejstubbs

[njee20]

Yes, my thoughts too, and didn't mention something similar myself for fear of being off-topic too.  Although the 'cashless society' concept may well be more 'convenient', all it actually does is place the banks and governments in even more powerful positions above us mere citizens than ever before, in effect creating what could be regarded as a 'Nineteen-Eighty-Four' (George Orwell) style society.  Think about it, one 'wrong move', or more accurately one perceived 'wrong move' and your bank could effectively cripple an individual at the touch of a button.  A very dangerous area to blindly walk into for anyone that values their 'freedom', and as you correctly point out those queuing up to be to be micro-chipped seem only too willing to blindly hand themselves over to corporate power - hook, line and sinker.  Both insane and dangerous.

A little bit dystopian I'd say! I read a lot more stories of people having their cash stolen than I do banks "crippling" people for a perceived "wrong move", whatever that may entail!

 

If you're browsing the web there is vast swathes of data available to all sorts of people on you, it's a bit 'tin foil hat' to avoid banks for fear of some sort of sentient being which can annihilate you whenever they feel like!

[YesTor]

A little bit dystopian I'd say!

 

Sure, that's one way of viewing it, however it's not as though banks aren't known for their underhanded/deceitful tactics after all.  In which case I prefer to keep my options/opinions open either way, whereas I guess others prefer to rely on blind faith that the banks will 'look after us' and are only operating in our best interests.   Some might simply label that as naive.  Each to his own... 

Edited October 27, 2018 by YesTor

[njee20]

Why would people operate on blind faith? Is there no middle ground between "all your cash under the mattress" and "blissfully ignorant of your pending elimination by a bank"?! I work in financial services, I'm not naive or anything of the like, and would agree anyone thinking that banks only operate in the customers' best interest is naive. I'm pretty sure that person doesn't exist however. No company seeking to make a profit is operating in the best interest of the customer. You gave a detailed breakdown of how you want to maximise profits by not taking cards.

 

This has now gone spectacularly off topic however!

 

Cards are going to continue to grow in popularity to near domination, this pleases me for the reasons detailed herein, some business will be left behind by this, which is absolutely fine, survival of the fittest. It's not going to be instant, it's taken 40+ years to get to where we are after all! But then I'm a millennial with my phone glued to my hand, and I'm happy to manage all my money online without ever having to speak to a person!

[E3109]

In my own experience njee20 'cash in the mattress' is safe as houses.

If it goes missing, then it's my responsibility alone.

 

Not that I actually keep cash in the mattress, but you get the drift.

 

In other news, some banks in the Far East pay 8% APR on savings accounts.

Maybe that is why there is a limit on how much physical cash you can export.

 

Just as a little aside, the last shred of trust I had in British banks evaporated overnight, when I found out that (80% state-owned) RBS provided a large part of the finance to Kraft when they bought out Cadbury in their hostile bid. Needless to say, I've boycotted both firms ever since.

 

As RBS is still state-owned (although to a lesser degree now) you would've been forgiven for thinking that they had the wellbeing of the country at heart... Hmmm oh well.

Edited October 27, 2018 by E3109

[Tricky-CRS]

When I ran my trade stand I was told by another trade cash is best as it doesn't go through the books and card payments have a paper trail.

 

Cash isn't free add up time sorting, counting and filling in paperwork, driving to bank or post office (less of them now do business banking) pay for parking, queuing and time at counter and finally driving home. Add on to this business insurance is higher because of handling cash and risk of being robbed and some banks charge for deposits of cash and charge to get change / float, all adds up to cash not being free compared to cards.

[E3109]

When I ran my trade stand I was told by another trade cash is best as it doesn't go through the books and card payments have a paper trail.

Cash isn't free add up time sorting, counting and filling in paperwork, driving to bank or post office (less of them now do business banking) pay for parking, queuing and time at counter and finally driving home. Add on to this business insurance is higher because of handling cash and risk of being robbed and some banks charge for deposits of cash and charge to get change / float, all adds up to cash not being free compared to cards.

I respect your points but surely the time spent sorting, counting and filling in paperwork online, takes up just as much time as counting physical cash.

 

I realise I may be seen as a Luddite (not a bad thing IMHO) but I really don't want the authorities knowing my every financial transaction.

What I choose to buy is nothing to do with them. Our lives are micromanaged by these creatures enough as it is.

Edited October 27, 2018 by E3109

[YesTor]

If you're browsing the web there is vast swathes of data available to all sorts of people on you, it's a bit 'tin foil hat' to avoid banks for fear of some sort of sentient being which can annihilate you whenever they feel like!

 

I appreciate that there is indeed all sorts of information out there on each of us as individuals, however that doesn't justify me surrendering more power to said banks/corporates than I need to.  Besides, no one is saying totally avoid banks, instead simply exercise caution and at least maintain a sense of balance and perspective when making choices.

 

 

Is there no middle ground between "all your cash under the mattress" and "blissfully ignorant of your pending elimination by a bank"?!

 

But then I'm a millennial with my phone glued to my hand, and I'm happy to manage all my money online without ever having to speak to a person!

 

Of course there is a middle ground and that's exactly where I consider myself to be - sure, I like the convenience of many online services, however at the same time I find it wise to keep a £10 note in my pocket for that occasion when I pop to a shop late at night for a pint of milk and find that the self-service card checkout is out of action.  It would appear that with your "phone glued to hand" concept alone that you would return home thirsty in such a predicament...

 

Similarly, I don't spend my time counting pennies hidden in a piggy bank behind the dressing table, while conversely neither do I blindly surrender all sense of control to any corporate organization unless absolutely necessary.  The scenario of living "phone glued to hand" and "totally managing everything online without ever having to speak to a person", is all well and good and may work for the most part, until let's say for example, you wake up one morning and for some innocent reason your Wi-Fi connection is down and suddenly you realize that you cannot communicate, cannot work, cannot pay bills, cannot even access your own money, etc etc.  It's at this point the fact hits home that the tiniest technical glitch can result in virtual meltdown. 

 

It often amazes me when calling a customer helpline to find that they are experiencing 'technical difficulties' and/or 'systems are down', whereby it's a case of "computer says no", and no-one otherwise has either a clue or the commonsense on how to go about solving any problem whatsoever without the "computer screen/tablet/phone that is glued to their hand". 

 

I know myself, as a self-employed individual it's happened to me whereby I have simply ended up taking a full day off work simply due to something as straightforward as having no Wi-Fi.  And it's damned frustrating when you realize that you have placed so much reliance on one single system/route-to-task.  I guess the simple point I am trying to make here is that too much reliance on any one system is fine while everything is running smoothly, not so great when the smallest 'glitch' can and often does result in total chaos.

 

In all walks of life balance is key.

Edited October 27, 2018 by YesTor

[E3109]

In agreement Yes Tor, there was some kind of technological glitch with one of the banks in the last fortnight and while I didn't see this for myself, it would've been rather satisfying to be able to circumvent all of that in a shop and just hand over a bit of 'folding' in exchange for goods.

I'm not opposed to electronic transactions per se, but I'm absolutely opposed to it becoming prevalent or, heaven forbid, the only option.

 

I'm saddened to experience that many businesses promote electronic payments over hard cash transactions and (hopefully not getting too political here) I get a feeling that this is the reason why various TOCs have been promoting the purchase of rail tickets via 'apps' and so on.

 

I mentioned above that a lot of Swedes have been getting implanted with microchips in order to conduct their day-to-day transactions. I realise that this is the exception rather than the rule at present, but if we're not careful it may become the only option.

Sinister times ahead?

 

What's it got to do with HMRC that I bagged a Heljan EM2 for £99 the other week, no wonder I paid in cash.

Sick of these people sticking their noses in where it's not welcome. They're supposed to serve us but it would seem it's the other way around and no disrespect to those who promote electronic payments over cash. But it seems you may be part of the problem, albeit unwittingly.

Edited October 27, 2018 by E3109