Just a little help please.

[Ray M]

Hello to all.

My nephew as sent me this simple diagram of some sidings he wants to lay (on a new  project)

He tells me that the only insulfrog point is the double slip, the others are all electro frog.

He has bought himself a few of these Peco electro fishplates with the wire feeds & some insul fishplates.

the question i ask, is where do you put what.

 

I`m still doing the old insulfrogs every where, so i have no idea about this new fangled stuff.

 

Thanks to all.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Ray M

[Suzie]

You might like to attach the diagram...

 

 

(click reply with attachments and upload it there.)

[Ray H]

I'd suggest adding the fishplates on the two lines to the left of the diagram and to the left of any pointwork,

 

The various tracks to the right of the layout should be able to be isolated by changing the relevant points if the points haven't been modified as recommended when used in connection with DCC operation.

 

Ideally we'd need to know a little more about how this area of the layout will be operated and what if anything it connects to before we can be more precise regarding the wiring.

[Ray M]

You might like to attach the diagram...

 

 

(click reply with attachments and upload it there.)

Yes it does help a little.

I did have a good read of the forum  before i found out i`ve just had a senior moment.

[Ray M]

I'd suggest adding the fishplates on the two lines to the left of the diagram and to the left of any pointwork,

 

The various tracks to the right of the layout should be able to be isolated by changing the relevant points if the points haven't been modified as recommended when used in connection with DCC operation.

 

Ideally we'd need to know a little more about how this area of the layout will be operated and what if anything it connects to before we can be more precise regarding the wiring.

No DCC involved. And all the points will be new Peco.

So there should be no mods.

He did send me this pic, using some old track that he has. To give a rough idea.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Ray M

[Pete the Elaner]

No DCC involved. And all the points will be new Peco.

So there should be no mods.

Ignore the reference to DCC. That was a bad choice of words on Ray's part.

The modification Ray refers to is simply to make the points more reliable & equally valid for DC & DCC. It is explained quite well on Brian Lambert's website, about 2/3 of the way down this page: https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html

[Junctionmad]

I'd suggest adding the fishplates on the two lines to the left of the diagram and to the left of any pointwork,

 

The various tracks to the right of the layout should be able to be isolated by changing the relevant points if the points haven't been modified as recommended when used in connection with DCC operation.

 

Ideally we'd need to know a little more about how this area of the layout will be operated and what if anything it connects to before we can be more precise regarding the wiring.

I can see why there is so much confusion

 

Out of the box PECO points work for DC and DCC and provide power routing to the adjacent exit tracks

 

“ modifying them for DCC “ , which in fact is also better for DC , simply changes the way the switch rails and the frog receive power , it does not remove the power routing facility , a point people get confused over , nor does it make the point electrically different to the out of the box version from the layout point of view. After all the frog is still powered by the polarity of the point as are the exit track as is the box version

 

In the OPs case there is only a need to feed in a supply to the two left most tracks , power routing will ensure the rest . This assumes he is happy with solely relying on fishplates for conductivity

 

At first glance , there’s no requirement for any insulating fishplates as the slip is insulfrog and none of the sidings have power back feeding into them , assuming of course this is all controlled by a single controller

 

Dave

Edited November 8, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Ray H]

Apologies for any confusion over my previous post which was based on the OP not indicating whether the points were new or not. Had they been previously used and modified  according to the suggested way for DCC (which can be equally beneficial for DC operation) there may have been a greater chance that something more than the basic wiring (and switching) may have been required.

 

Apologies once again

[Suzie]

It is all quite simple, no insulated joiners required if DC, just feed both tracks to the left (with four of the wired joiners) and it will all work.

[Ray M]

Thanks to all.

I`ve phoned him ,this morning and he seems well chuffed that he needs no other mods.

[Pete the Elaner]

For

 

It is all quite simple, no insulated joiners required if DC, just feed both tracks to the left (with four of the wired joiners) and it will all work.

This is slightly misleading.

The recommendation to power the from via an external is switch is for reliability, not for DCC.

 

On a smaller layout, you should get away with this for a while.

The issues are as follows:

Over time, oxidation will build up around the point blade contact area & at the rail joins. The problem will be worsened if the layout is in cold or damp conditions such as a loft or shed.

Rail is a relatively poor conductor. On a larger layout, you are likely to observe voltage drop.

 

I have recently become involved with a (DC) club layout which relied on rails & point blades for all conductivity. As a result of this, it runs very badly.

I got involved with another (DC) exhibition layout when it was built 6-7 years ago, modifying the points as described as they were laid. It has run flawlessly ever since, requiring only rail cleaning (but not point blade cleaning) before every show.

 

Make your own choice, but using DC is the wrong reason for choosing to use point blades to make electrical contact.

[Suzie]

I was just answering the original question, which did not ask about wiring auxiliary switches to the frogs. Of course frogs should be wired with auxiliary switches! This has no bearing at all on where the insulated joiners and power-feed joiners go. If DCC was used then a few insulated joiners around the double slip would be required along with some extra feeds.

[Junctionmad]

There is no reason to add insulated fishplates to the above layout, whether its DCC  or DC.

 

The issue with DCC, is that generally we want to power up sidings irrespective of the direction of the preceding point , i.e. we typically want to " defeat" the power routing function feature of the point , hence this is done by feeding a " dropper " wire to the siding .  This is in effect adding a backfeed m and as a result insulators are needed 

 

But for this DC layout none are required 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Junctionmad

[Suzie]

There is an Insulfrog slip, that will cause troublesome shorting if DCC is used.