Z21 Consists

[Despatcher]

I have two Colas Class 37s with sound that I have set up as a consist on my Z21. They sound really fantastic. The Z21 consist process works almost perfectly apart from one small glitch. My Zimo decoders have been set up to brake using a high number in CV4 to slowly coast to halt. To increase braking while coasting to a halt F2 (Function Key 2) is used to "dab" the brakes to simulate realistic braking. Holding down F2 rather than dabbing enables a faster stop to take place for when (misjudgement of distance occurs"! However, in a consist only one loco responds to the F2 brake being used. It is possible to display both locos and their controls side by side on my iPad but this would still need one hand  the iPad and one finger from each remaining hand (!!!?) to dab both F2 buttons at the same time.

 

Is there any way I can reprogram F2 (Function Key 2) to work for both locos so that one loco does not push or pull the other as they are stopping. The Z21 sets up lights (direction) for both locos, direction of travel for both locos and throttle for both locos by just using the controls for either loco. The remaining Function keys remain separate for both locos. This is useful for starting as one loco can toot and then the second can answer before setting off. 

 

My instant remedy is to shorten the stopping distance by putting a smaller number in CV4 for each loco when they are in consist but being able to dab the brakes for both locos by just using F2 for either loco would be good.

 

So, is there any easy way of accomplishing this please?

[Nigelcliffe]

CV's 21 and 22 should control which functions operate in a consist, and which operate on the loco address. 

 

CV21 covers F1 to F8, as a series of eight binary switches. 

So, start by reading back CV21 (which includes F2) for both locos.   If its the same in both locos, then the problem needs more thinking.   If different, does one indicate that F2 works on the consist address and the other does not ?    That suggests a change to make. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Despatcher]

Thanks. I have tried entering 2 for binary bit 2 in Cv 21 in both locos but this makes no difference. F2 is still separate for both locos. The default for both locos in CV21 is 0 in single loco mode or consist mode. It seems to be something to do with how the Z21 sets up a consist internally. CV 19, the consist address is also 0 as a default. I then tried setting CV19 to 2 for both locos so they had the same consist number but that was wrong as both locos refused to move in consist or as single locos until I returned CV19 back to zero. What does CV22 do? This is reaching the limit of my CV knowledge and making my brain hurt so no assumption of knowledge answers would be appreciated.

[Nigelcliffe]

It sounds like the default consist in the Z21 is command-station assisted, rather than a decoder-based "advanced consist". 

 

If you want to try a decoder advanced consist, then two steps, take one at a time:

 

Set CV19 to your chosen consist address in both locos,  needs to be different to their normal running addresses, values from 1 to 127 are permitted, your example of "2" is OK.  
Now, add the new chosen address to the throttle in the Z21 (you may have to create a new loco in the loco list for this address). 
Run the loco on throttle, any locos which have CV19 set to the consist address should move together. 

To break the consist, set CV19=0 in each loco in turn.

 

( You can program CV19 on the main, but for setting this up, may be safer to do it on the programming track, each loco in turn, so you're sure what's happening ).

 

Then, having got them to be runnable in a consist, worry about CV21. 

 

 

What's going on ? 

CV19 is the Advanced Consist address.   If set to zero, then loco runs on normal address.  If set to 1-127, that is the consist address.  (Values 129-255 are also used, for running in reverse direction to normal, but that's more complication). 

CV21 and CV22 are switches which determine which functions are on the Consist address, and which on the Loco address.  When running in a consist, whilst a loco responds to the consist throttle for speed, you can choose whether the functions also respond to the consist address, or if you have to call up the loco address.  For your requirements, F2 would appear to need to be in a consist address, hence CV21=2 would be a sensible value. 

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

As the OP implied consisting on the Z21 is trivial but it may not be consisting the DCC US sense of the term.

 

First you do speed matching, each loco is run over a fixed distance at some speed step and the run is timed by the user.

You have to this at least 3 times at different speeds over the same distance, you then enter the info into the traction settings for the loco on the Z21 app.

You obviously have to do this for each loco that will be consisted or double headed. On my new layout I plan on doing this for every powered loco or mu that I have.

This takes care of speed matching for your consist.

 

Next in the App you create a new Train as opposed to a new Loco.

 

In the Train you add the loco's or mu's that are to be double headed or consisted.

 

Then you select the train and off you go, no CV programming is required at all as the App and presumably the Z21 itself is taking care of all the bits and bytes.

 

I haven't yet tried anything more sophisticated than having 2 locos top and tail my CMX track cleaner.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Despatcher]

Thanks. I have done all the speed matching. Every 5 speed steps starting a speed step 5. Well worth doing as the two loco in my consist, both Colas Rail 37s with Zimo sound decoders can be started at one end of my long end to end 6" apart and they remain that distance apart from one end to the other. When coupled together there is not a hint of push or pull on the coupling. Setting up a Train instead of a Loco is not the problem. It is dead easy apart from time consuming doing all the speed matching.

 

My problem comes from having Activedrive decoders which have braking using F2 to dab the brakes. As I am a big fan of Activedrive, 23 of my 27 sound fitted locos have it. While I do not use "double heading" much, the two 37s look and sound wonderful. 

 

I will have a play with Nigel's suggestion over the next few days and see how I get on.

[Nigelcliffe]

I've just had a play with the Z21 app (I last used it a few years back, but I have updated it to current version).  I don't have a Z21 to test against.   There doesn't seem to be a mechanism for passing function key presses through to members of the consists (trains) managed by the Z21.   So, unless you can persuade the developers to add something to do it, you won't easily get F2 braking to work via the Z21 consists. 

 

My method will work, but you'll loose the speed matching you've setup in the Z21.  To speed match the locos precisely, you'll have to spend time faffing with the 28 point speed curve in the faster of the two locos to bring it down to match the speed of the slower at each of the 28 steps. 

 

The only other method I can think of involves external processing power, and its a bit of a long-shot.  If an external device (eg. computer) can send function commands to the locos whilst they are inside the Z21 consist, without upsetting things, then it might be viable.   The computer needs to "listen" to the loco commands being sent to the lead loco in the consist, and if it sees "F2", it needs to echo the F2 command to the second loco, and similarly if it sees "F2-off", it needs to send the F2-off command to the second loco.    I've made something like this work before on different hardware, but not onto the Z21 hardware, so no idea if it could work. 

[Despatcher]

Many thanks indeed Nigel. In that case I think it is easier to just change CV4 from its default of 100 to something much lower for my "double headers" and forget about using F2 unless the locos are working as single locos. One day I will buy a different controller! I quite like my Z21. My grandchildren can relate to it much more than a "normal" controller and if we are going to get grandchildren in general interested in model railways, then something has got to change considerably. I have now stepped off my soapbox!! Apologies. Thanks for your help. Much appreciated indeed.

[Nigelcliffe]

Many thanks indeed Nigel. In that case I think it is easier to just change CV4 from its default of 100 to something much lower for my "double headers" and forget about using F2 unless the locos are working as single locos. .....

 

That sounds like a good work-around.   If you change CV4 when setting up the consist, you could change it back when reverting to single engine.  Programming on the Main ought to be able to make the changes. 

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

My post about speed matching was more for Nigel's benefit than yours.

 

Sorry if you felt that I was preaching to the choir.

 

Regards,

 

John P