Northern Powerhouse? Unlikely if this is true.

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

No! The report clearly states that the new alignment ends at the eastern end of the Standedge Tunnels., and one of the first things would be reinstating a third line from Huddersfield up to Marsden to allow for freight train paths. There is no mention of four-tracking the section from Hudderfield to Leeds, which would be very difficult as the route was never more than two tracks.

No it wont be complete four tracking, too many obstacles but there will be additional tracks where possible and required:

[woodenhead]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The biggest hole in all of this appears to me to be leaving Manchester - Leeds to the last place in the phasing, i.e. it's at least 20 years away before work starts.  If 'they' mean what they say about a 'northern powerhouse' then surely that is the first place the shovels and dynamite should be doing their stuff?

 

Overall there is a lot of sensible pragmatism in what is proposed and some of it actually addresses the considerable problem of the West Midlands - Sheffield - Yorkshire axis where speeds are low and long distance trains tend to be overcrowded.  Plus spreading the jam of electrification to other routes makes a lot of sense although quite what Bristolians, Devonians, Cornubians, and Southwalians think about the claim that 75% in total of trunk routes will be electrified sorry 'decarbonised' remains to be seen. 

If they are actually looking at the CLC route through Warrington to resolve that conundrum then potentially they will be looking at the old M&SLR through Ashburys, Gorton,, Fairfield and Guide Bridge to get the trains from city to country in the least disruptive manner - it's also pretty straight.  It was reduced to two tracks late 70s, plenty of space for a commuter route and an express route.

 

From there it depends what they want in a new alignment to Standedge - Micklehurst loop anyone??

Edited November 18, 2021 by woodenhead
spelling

[APOLLO]

I still think the Warrington Bank Quay low level "upgrade" route is a joke and will never happen.

 

I agree ALL our railways require upgrading / electrifying etc. Just what is it with spending £Billions just for a few minutes saving?

HS2 London Birmingham is too far into construction now, and anyway IS NEEDED to give extra capacity to the WCML, similarly the leg to at least Crewe should be built ASAP.

 

What would I spend money on as well as the above ?

 

Re open Woodhead (I hear the groans !!!!) to Sheffield and electrify on to Doncaster & Hull - passenger & freight Liverpool Hull.

 

Rail freight seems little mentioned in the proposals.

 

Four track again Stalybridge to Huddersfield (Micklehurst route), Re open / rebore the 2 unused Standedge tunnels. Morley needs sorting somehow - new bore ? or via Gildersome (Leeds New Line re-open) ?

 

A rolling carefully planned electrification program. Many routes to choose from. Dedicated skilled teams moving jobs to jobs (several on the go at once). Same for infrastructure designers / manufacturers. Long term plan and commitment.

 

Reopen ASAP, some suggestions are (in the North)

 

Leamside route 

 

Skipton to Colne

 

Penrith to Keswick

 

Carlisle Hawick to new Waverley line terminus. 

 

Bolton Bury Rochdale line - VERY useful this one - a tram would be fine.

 

Matlock to Peak Forest (Derby to Manchester)

 

Leigh - get rid of that  (mis) guided busway - what a joke that is. Again a tram would be fine.

 

No doubt there are many more.

 

We have been informed at COP26 that fossil fuels will go by 2050 or earlier, we WILL NEED well before then ALL our railways, and decarbonised (electric etc) ones at that.

 

Whilst the investment announced today (and don't forget it is mostly a long term plan) is very welcome, it will go nowhere near to what will be required by 2050, less than 30 years hence.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flittersnoop]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If they are actually looking at the CLC route through Warrington to resolve that conundrum then potentially they will be looking at the old M&SLR through Ashburys, Gorton,, Fairfield and Guide Bridge to get the trains from city to country in the least disruptive manner - it's also pretty straight.  It was reduced to two tracks late 70s, plenty of space for a commuter route and an express route.

 

From there it depends what they want in a new alignment to Standedge - Micklehurst loop anyone??

The old LNWR line past Fiddlers Ferry is the one the report says will be used, linking to a new alignment east of Warrington to link up with the HS2 line to Manchester Airport.

 

I imagine the new alignment east of Manchester will have to be mostly in tunnels.

[D9020 Nimbus]

If they're going to upgrade the ECML, they'd better upgrade the catenary which is currently completely inadequate — as Christopher Garnett (CEO of GNER) said quite a few years ago…

 

As for the plans in general, this is a courageous decision as Sir Humphrey would say — Labour will be a lot happier about this than a lot of the northern Tory MPs elected in 2019.

[APOLLO]

We're all guessing re routes etc. These announcements today will cause a lot of grief with people living along the routes even when detailed plans are published, which very well may be a long time in the future.

 

One of my daughters friends lives in a newish house in Lowton, the proposed HS2 Golborne spur (Wigan Link) will pass right behind their house and they are not happy. This line may or may not get built, but it is causing problems re people buying / selling houses. Remember there will be no travel benefits for most as no new stations are planned near such locations.

 

When the HS2 eastern and western legs were announced several years ago detailed plans were published on the web immediately. Todays announcement is very wishy washy with no detail, no plans.

 

I sense trouble ahead in this respect.

 

Brit15

Edited November 18, 2021 by APOLLO

[woodenhead]

Greater use of existing alignments creates less need to compulsory purchase and less need to issue concrete plans right now 

[APOLLO]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Greater use of existing alignments creates less need to compulsory purchase and less need to issue concrete plans right now 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/18/can-we-have-our-home-back-hs2-u-turn-leaves-uprooted-family-reeling

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Greater use of existing alignments creates less need to compulsory purchase and less need to issue concrete plans right now 

 

 

10 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/18/can-we-have-our-home-back-hs2-u-turn-leaves-uprooted-family-reeling

 

Brit15

 

Yes and no.

 

Although the Government have ditched most of (note thats not the same as the 'all being scrapped' headlines in the media) they have said (1) Safeguarding of the previously published alignment will stay in place and (2) the bit which will be constructed will be capable of being extended in future.

 

There is also a lot of Woolley language used about Leeds - Sheffield connectivity and much crossing of fingers that a new tramway system in Leeds might free up space in the existing station for additional NPR / HS services. Whether this actually happens as implied is something I have my doubts about and it would be wise not to do anything which prevents the HS2 proposals being reactivated in future.

 

 

[phil-b259]

48 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

If they're going to upgrade the ECML, they'd better upgrade the catenary which is currently completely inadequate — as Christopher Garnett (CEO of GNER) said quite a few years ago…

 

As for the plans in general, this is a courageous decision as Sir Humphrey would say — Labour will be a lot happier about this than a lot of the northern Tory MPs elected in 2019.

 

To a degree yes - but as has we have seen on RMweb there are an awful lot of ordinary people in 'the north' who regard HS rail as political grandstanding and taking away the focus from more mundane but more important regional schemes.

 

I draw your attention to the fact that although under Mr Corbyn, Labours last general election pledge was one of the most socialist in history and promised all sorts of stuff for the 'working' man - the absence of a firm commitment to proceed with Brexit' was a significant factor in labour 'safe seats' falling like domino across the north.

 

As such, an over emphasis on HS rail by Labour could backfire just as badly - particularly if the Government can deliver on its plans for smaller, but more quickly realised improvements.

[phil-b259]

58 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I still think the Warrington Bank Quay low level "upgrade" route is a joke and will never happen.

 

 

And I predict you will be forced to eat humble pie over this statement.

 

As the document makes clear the re-usage of that corridor provides a way of London - Liverpool (and potentially Liverpool to the North trains) to by-pass some congested sections of railway while reusing an asset that has no purpose once since the power station closed.

 

Yes it requires a new alignment east of Warrington but thats not by any means unfeasible

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

Reopen ASAP, some suggestions are (in the North)

 

Leamside route 

 

Skipton to Colne

 

Penrith to Keswick

 

Carlisle Hawick to new Waverley line terminus. 

 

 

NONE of which have any relevance to Trans Pennine routes serving the big cities of Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds

 

The whole point of HS2, the NPR, etc is to tackle a particular set of problems based on factual evidence of things like route capacity, journey times, train lengths, etc - not simply an exercise in building railways because they happen to be 'in the north'!

 

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Bolton Bury Rochdale line - VERY useful this one - a tram would be fine.

 

Matlock to Peak Forest (Derby to Manchester)

 

Leigh - get rid of that  (mis) guided busway - what a joke that is. Again a tram would be fine.

 

 

 

The Peak Forrest route has a VERY vocal camping group (backed by the Nationa Parks Authority) dedicated to keeping it as a cycling walking attraction and they have vastly more members than the the rival group campaigning to restore rail services. You should note that an application for funding from the 'restoring your railways' was rejected precisely because of the strength of feeling about keeping the cycle / walking route intact.

 

The other two suggestions are good ones - but trams are not the responsibility of the DfT! Yes they can provide grants (and have indicated they would be favourable to approaches to extend tramways)  - BUT the legwork MUST be done by the local authorities as oposed to national Government!

 

So if you want trams to Bury via Rochdale or get the busway converted into a tram you need to be campaigning for Mr Burnham and GMPTE to be developing them in the first instance, not whinging that the DfT haven't developed them themselves.

 

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Rail freight seems little mentioned in the proposals.

 

 

Hardly a surprise!

 

Railfreight is a strictly private affair and as we have seen with operators switching to diesels due to high electricity prices over the past couple of months the Government is pretty powerless to do much. Yes it can provide loops and OLE - BUT there is no obligation (or even certainty) that they will be used as that will be dependent on the FOCs deciding that a particular freight flow is profitable.

 

Hence its pretty difficult to develop big proposals that have a gestation period of decades...

 

Now if the Government owned things like container depots, locos / wagons, etc and was prepared to run them at a loss if business dropped / changed then it would be a lot easier to develop a detailed plan...

Edited November 18, 2021 by phil-b259

[whart57]

35 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

I draw your attention to the fact that although under Mr Corbyn, Labours last general election pledge was one of the most socialist in history and promised all sorts of stuff for the 'working' man - the absence of a firm commitment to proceed with Brexit' was a significant factor in labour 'safe seats' falling like domino across the north.

 

And Brexit has been such a cracking success hasn't it? 

 

Today's announcements haven't just undermined the concept of HS2, they have also taken an axe to all other strategic plans in the North. I'm no fan of Corbyn but I can't see how a government led by him would be worse than the lying and cheating corruption that is Johnson's 

[black and decker boy]

5 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

Look at the government's map: how much more underwhelming could a "Powerhouse" be before it's just a shed with a torch in it?

 

What happens at Huddersfield to justify ending the core route there?!

 

Hopeless - I suspect the government has weighed up the electoral cost of this half-baked scheme and decided it's not bothered about losing support in Yorkshire.

I don't think that HS2 is a vote winner to any party. Its very divisive and not tangible with opening dates for phase 2b heading towards 2040. There will be many who celebrate it being curtailed. NPR is similar, new route will upset locals, it’s not even started design & statutory processes so again, is at least 10 or 15 years away from reality.

A package of smaller, simpler schemes that deliver more quickly and add to capacity or reduce journey times will have far more public reach and more likely to drive positive response (though still unlikely to be in this parliament).

Schools, hospitals and better broadband can be delivered far more quickly and within this parliament so its not hard to see why politicians make the decisions they do. We cant moan when they do given we keep electing them knowing it will happen, party colour being irrelevant.

 

Public investment and its effects on voters don’t really suit long term investment in rail (and trunk road spend is at risk of the same approach as it’s rapidly becoming too hot a topic due to climate change).

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

No! The report clearly states that the new alignment ends at the eastern end of the Standedge Tunnels., and one of the first things would be reinstating a third line from Huddersfield up to Marsden to allow for freight train paths. There is no mention of four-tracking the section from Hudderfield to Leeds, which would be very difficult as the route was never more than two tracks.

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The biggest hole in all of this appears to me to be leaving Manchester - Leeds to the last place in the phasing, i.e. it's at least 20 years away before work starts.  If 'they' mean what they say about a 'northern powerhouse' then surely that is the first place the shovels and dynamite should be doing their stuff?

 

 

I suspect this is deliberate -its the hardest thing to predict accurately.

 

The Governments report makes significant mention of a tramway for Leeds and hopes that this will be able to absorb some local train services thus freeing up space in the current station. However a Leeds tramway is most definitely not a 'shovel ready' scheme and there will need to be plenty of development work done before it is, so just how much capacity it will free up is vague at this time.

 

Similarly I see lots of mention of 'digital signalling' in the report with the implication that this will solve the capacity issues by squeezing more out of the existing (or moderately expanded) infrastructure - something which i am a tad sceptical about.

 

Therefore IF it turns out a significant uplift in capacity is needed then extending what is proposed via a further section of new line from Huddersfield to a new set of platforms at Leeds has been left open as an option - but much like the saying about eating an elephant, breaking it down into smaller chunks (some of which can be consumed at a later date) it avoids the need for big decisions now.

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Plus spreading the jam of electrification to other routes makes a lot of sense although quite what Bristolians, Devonians, Cornubians, and Southwalians think about the claim that 75% in total of trunk routes will be electrified sorry 'decarbonised' remains to be seen. 

 

These places are not in the place called 'the North' (and nor did they all suddenly decide to vote Conservative in the last General Election after decades of returning a Labour MP). As such it doesn't matter about other regions of the country (who are generally inclined to Vote Conservative anyway) the important thing is it sounds impressive to the residents of 'the north' and helps them feel inclined to give Boris another go next time round...

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, whart57 said:

And Brexit has been such a cracking success hasn't it? 

 

Today's announcements haven't just undermined the concept of HS2, they have also taken an axe to all other strategic plans in the North. I'm no fan of Corbyn but I can't see how a government led by him would be worse than the lying and cheating corruption that is Johnson's 

If you remove the politics from this and look at it with fresh eyes, the only bit cancelled (or not committed to) is the leg from Toton to Leeds via Sheffield.  However, the are alternatives that utilise existing or being built routes that will mean Sheffield and Leeds can still benefit.

 

The upgrade of the route from Liverpool to Leeds on it's own would have been a massive undertaking to drive a new route through the Pennines and likely faced a lot of physical obstacles along the way before you even consider objections from the public.  By proposing a route along the CLC route, re-opening a Bank Quay lower station, joining HS2 in Cheshire to Manchester will make a big difference and it is one that will be a lot less disruptive to the public than a brand new route.  Once in Manchester a new route will be found to get to Standedge that may or may not use some existing alignments before plunging under the Pennines through some existing bores that may or may not require widening.  Once to the east using existing alignments again reduces the impact on the public whilst getting to Leeds.

 

I think it is a logical approach that would have come from any number of sensible people let alone politicians.

 

Removing the eastern leg beyond the Midlands has also allowed them to address the issue of how it was forcing the citizens of Derby and Nottingham to all travel to Toton to pick up an express negating probably any savings.

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, Flittersnoop said:

I suspect the government has weighed up the electoral cost of this half-baked scheme and decided it's not bothered about losing support in Yorkshire.

 

To a degree you are right. Outside districts dominated by mining, Yorkshire is by and large pretty rural and as such always returns Conservative / Right wing MPs.

 

For urban voters in Leeds there also is the promise of a Tram (something the Labour Chancellor Alistair Dowling deliberately stopped from going ahead at the 11th hour even though the scheme was Shovel ready back in 2008) so there are brownie points to be earned there even if the loss of a HS2 line is seen negatively (which I suspect it won't be ordinary folk).

[Northmoor]

43 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

The Peak Forrest route has a VERY vocal camping group (backed by the Nationa Parks Authority) dedicated to keeping it as a cycling walking attraction and they have vastly more members than the the rival group campaigning to restore rail services. You should note that an application for funding from the 'restoring your railways' was rejected precisely because of the strength of feeling about keeping the cycle / walking route intact.

Heading off topic - although it is almost a Trans-Pennine route - but despite being a member and supporter of Peak Rail for 30 years, I fear you are probably right; it has missed its opportunity and allowed the footpath/cycleway to become established ("But it's always been here") .  A demo section was set up in Monsal Dale some years ago, showing how a single line and the path could be adequately separated and safely co-exist, but this was before the path was directed through the tunnels.  Can you imagine being on horseback in Headstone tunnel when a train came through, even at 20mph? 

Despite the fact that a railway could easily achieve a modal transfer of 250,000 people a year, I think you're right that the current users will have too strong a voice, even if most of them arrive in the National Park by car with their bikes on the roof.

[Northmoor]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

To a degree you are right. Outside districts dominated by mining, Yorkshire is by and large pretty rural and as such always returns Conservative / Right wing MPs.

 

For urban voters in Leeds there also is the promise of a Tram (something the Labour Chancellor Alistair Dowling deliberately stopped from going ahead at the 11th hour even though the scheme was Shovel ready back in 2008) so there are brownie points to be earned there even if the loss of a HS2 line is seen negatively (which I suspect it won't be ordinary folk).

I'm not a Conservative supporter but when it comes to railways, Labour have a terrible record of being long on promises and short on delivery.  Consider that during two significant periods in power in the last 60 years, they achieved the following:

• Promising to end the rail closures planned in the Beeching report, once elected they signed off on every closure and quite a few more (including the MML through the Peak) that weren't even in the report; 
• Under the Blair-Brown leadership, they managed to complete electrification of 0.1% of the existing network in 12 years.  Given a digger, the necessary masts and drums of cable, I could just about have achieved that on my own.

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, whart57 said:

And Brexit has been such a cracking success hasn't it? 

 

Today's announcements haven't just undermined the concept of HS2, they have also taken an axe to all other strategic plans in the North. I'm no fan of Corbyn but I can't see how a government led by him would be worse than the lying and cheating corruption that is Johnson's 

 

Oh I agree with your sentiments re Brexit (less so about Corbyn*).

 

However the facts don't lie - at the last election huge swathes of previously loyal Labour Voters decided against voting for a very socialist leaning political agenda and went with what amounts to a right wing a con artist, seemingly on the basis of his ability to deliver something that is clearly impossible to anyone who actually studied the whole Brexit saga in depth.

 

As such what you need to be asking yourself is does Labour banging on about an area has been thrown to the Wolves metaphorically over HS2s / NPRs downgrading / cancellation really represent something traditional labour voters are going to care about come the next General Election? If not there is a very good chance of history repeating itself and that 'blue wall' staying very much intact....

 

 

 

*As a rule moving to the extremes (be it the left or the right rarely result in sound policies (and in their worst manifestations as Communism and Fascism are virtually identical in terms of repression / human rights abuses. The most satisfactory place in terms of Governance is the middle ground where compromise and pragmatism are the watchwords not blind obedience to ideology and dilution of policy is seen as a betrayal. Its unfortunate that the UK political system (and the electorate at large) has evolved to work on a winner takes all approach rather then where coalitions (and thus a degree of compromise) is the norm.

 

 

 

 

[Neil]

In many ways it's the Leeds - Manchester bit which is the most disappointing. Before the pandemic I travelled this stretch regularly when visiting family in York. Despite my journeys being well away from the rush hour peaks the trains were always rammed. Coming from York was usually OK because the service didn't get to a sardine state until Leeds was reached but coming east from Manchester was a different story. It'll take a significant increase in both the capacity of trains and the route to improve matters off peak let alone when mass commuting takes place.

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

Despite the fact that a railway could easily achieve a modal transfer of 250,000 people a year, I think you're right that the current users will have too strong a voice, even if most of them arrive in the National Park by car with their bikes on the roof.

 

Its not as though Buxton, Matlock, Manchester or Derby are inaccessible by rail - nor is it impossible to travel between them by rail. That was not the case on the Borders railway in Scotland for example.

 

As the report highlighted, the Hope Valley route has considerable potential to shorten journey times a south facing chord onto the MML still exists so if demand was there a Derby - Manchester service can still be run.

 

No, I'm afraid that the Matlock - Buxton route is one of those 'if it was still there it would be supported, but its nowhere close to viable to put back' jobs.

[woodenhead]

I cannot see what joining Buxton and Matlock would deliver except tourists - who already visit and use the trackbed to see the scenery.

 

Longer distance the only service that would use it would be Liverpool to Norwich, but at the cost of losing Sheffield, would any stone trains out of the Peak district use it?

 

Like Woodhead it will be slumbering on I think, plenty else to be doing before they need to be considered, unless they decide to do something for a fast Sheffield to Liverpool service using the new alignment to Manchester and an infill between the new route to Standedge and Penistone(for Barnsley) somehow justfies it.

[peanuts]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

I still think the Warrington Bank Quay low level "upgrade" route is a joke and will never happen.

 

I agree ALL our railways require upgrading / electrifying etc. Just what is it with spending £Billions just for a few minutes saving?

HS2 London Birmingham is too far into construction now, and anyway IS NEEDED to give extra capacity to the WCML, similarly the leg to at least Crewe should be built ASAP.

 

What would I spend money on as well as the above ?

 

Re open Woodhead (I hear the groans !!!!) to Sheffield and electrify on to Doncaster & Hull - passenger & freight Liverpool Hull.

 

Rail freight seems little mentioned in the proposals.

 

Four track again Stalybridge to Huddersfield (Micklehurst route), Re open / rebore the 2 unused Standedge tunnels. Morley needs sorting somehow - new bore ? or via Gildersome (Leeds New Line re-open) ?

 

A rolling carefully planned electrification program. Many routes to choose from. Dedicated skilled teams moving jobs to jobs (several on the go at once). Same for infrastructure designers / manufacturers. Long term plan and commitment.

 

Reopen ASAP, some suggestions are (in the North)

 

Leamside route 

 

Skipton to Colne

 

Penrith to Keswick

 

Carlisle Hawick to new Waverley line terminus. 

 

Bolton Bury Rochdale line - VERY useful this one - a tram would be fine.

 

Matlock to Peak Forest (Derby to Manchester)

 

Leigh - get rid of that  (mis) guided busway - what a joke that is. Again a tram would be fine.

 

No doubt there are many more.

 

We have been informed at COP26 that fossil fuels will go by 2050 or earlier, we WILL NEED well before then ALL our railways, and decarbonised (electric etc) ones at that.

 

Whilst the investment announced today (and don't forget it is mostly a long term plan) is very welcome, it will go nowhere near to what will be required by 2050, less than 30 years hence.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck re opening the micklehurst loop small matter of at least three viaducts have been demolished and most of the earthworks have been lanscaped into footpaths and nature trails two tunnels have been burried a swimming pool and sports center have been built on the site of the former uppermill goods yard .an equestrian center at friezland  a thriving haulage buisness at micklehurst and a planning aplication for 196 houses and a country park is with the councill at millbrook not realy an easy route to re instate expect a lot of very active resistance localy

[Markwj]

As someone who grew up in penketh a stones throw from the fiddlers ferry pub I am really excited at the prospect of riding this route on a scheduled service (however I will probably have to wait a long time for this)!