Hymek green

[Keith George]

Just a simple question, that I should know the answer to. Is the main green colour on the early livered Hymeks the same shade of green as carried by BR express 

 

steam loco's. ?

 

Thanks in anticipation,  Keith.

[lapford34102]

Yep!

 

Stu

[The Johnster]

It is the basic BR green applied to diesel locos post 1956, the same colour as the steam express livery.  It looks radically different on different diesel locos, as there were several variations of the diesel livery.  IIRC the only locos painted entirely in this green were shunting engines, class 37s, and some Westerns; everything else had white or light grey stripes in various positions on the body sides, in single or double versions, or two tone green as applied to class 25 and 47, or as applied to Deltics and Hymeks, with or without white or light grey window surrounds.  So the green looks significantly darker on, say, a BRCW type 2 than it does on a Warship, but isn't.

 

I regarded the corporate blue as a retrograde step, but at least it standardised things a bit.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Weren't class 40s and 45s also plain green? Also class 21, 22, 28? (21s converted to 29s got two tone green with the lighter green uppermost.)

[PenrithBeacon]

Just a simple question, that I should know the answer to. Is the main green colour on the early livered Hymeks the same shade of green as carried by BR express

 

steam loco's. ?

 

Thanks in anticipation, Keith.

Sort of, which is to say that the intention was that it was to be the same colour but the spec was so vague that it allowed paint manufacturers to use different ingredients which caused them to age differently. As they aged they changed shade so giving the impression that different shades of Deep Bronze Green was used.

There’s a big file of correspondence on this matter at TNA.

Modern paint technology has eliminated this problem for preservationists.

[Keith George]

Thankyou all for the enlightenment.

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

Weren't class 40s and 45s also plain green? Also class 21, 22, 28? (21s converted to 29s got two tone green with the lighter green uppermost.) 

 

Not quite; they had white or light grey (not sure which) stripes about 6" thick along the body sides between the cab doors,  These were at cantrail level on 24s, 28s, 40s and 44/5/6, and at the bottom of the side panels on 21/2.  A version of the the 2 tone green livery was applied to Type 1 classes, 14s, 17, 18s, 19s and 20s, with the lighter green on the cab fronts, extending over the whole cab on 14s.  IIRC, the only main line class in plain green were the 37s. 

 

Bear in mind that the locos were not not referred to by those class numbers in those pre-TOPS days, so that what we think of as a class 20 was an 'English Electric 1,000hp Type 1 Diesel-Electric Bo-Bo', an awkward method of identifying things that was much improved by TOPS.  The 6" stripes also appeared on Warships, cantrail level on the prototype D600 series (class 41) and at mid-side level on the D800s (classes 42/3).  Two white stripes were used on BRCW Type 2s and 3s (classes 26/7 and 33) and Brush Type 2s (class 31), along with white window surrounds.

 

Some diesel and electric locos were turned out in steam liveries in the late 50s and early 60s, including Manchester-Sheffield-Wath EM1s in lined mixed traffic black and lined green, and EM2s in lined green, and the pre-1955 modernisation plan diesels, the Ivatt twins and 10201/2/3, effectively the pre-production class 40s, in lined green.  Shunting engines were in unlined green post 1956 (some ran in black livery a good time after this) except for the Southampton Docks Ruston/Hornsbys, forget the tops class number now, which had 2 tone green cab front and backs, and white roofs IIRC.

 

There were plenty of variations on the WR, which experimented with Westerns in 'Desert Sand', 'Golden Ochre', plain maroon and plain green.  Warships, including some operating out of Waterloo, were painted plain maroon in the mid 60s.  The ER had a go with some Brush Type 2s (31s) as well, with a sort of Ochre and a Blue livery, complete with the white stripes and window surrounds.  Company prototypes, 'Deltic', 'Lion', 'Falcon' and eventually 'Kestrel' appeared in whatever the company wanted to paint them in.  

 

The 'Types' are a product of the 1955 modernisation plan, which envisaged 4 types of locomotives (not including shunting engines) to cover all work on a mixed traffic basis, and invited tenders to supply locos on that basis.  Type 1 was a 650-1.000hp power band, Type 2 was 1,001+-1,499, Type 3 was 1,500-1,999, and Type 4 was 2,000+.  In the event a further Type, 5, was needed of which the production Deltics were the only examples for some time.  The power bands were represented in the first digit of the TOPS  codes (except class 20, a minor anomaly that I am not going to make an issue about!).  A further Type, 6, appeared later, but was never referred to as such as TOPS was well established by then!

 

There does not seem to have ever been any attempt to apply liveries to locomotives designed for different types of traffic as there had been with steam locos; the Modernisation Plan diesels were all intended to be mixed traffic general purpose locos anyway.  Nor does the 'Type' or power band seem to have any direct relation to the livery applied.  The BR Derby Type 2s we now think of as classes 24 and 25 were included in one class, despite having two different engines of different ratings and different bogies and cab profiles; earlier locos were in plain green with a lower body white stripe and later ones in Brush Type 4 (47) type 2 tone.

 

Basically, everything was the same except when it was different!

Edited December 17, 2018 by The Johnster

[jonny777]

Not quite; they had white or light grey (not sure which) stripes about 6" thick along the body sides between the cab doors,  These were at cantrail level on 24s, 28s, 40s and 44/5/6, and at the bottom of the side panels on 21/2.  A version of the the 2 tone green livery was applied to Type 1 classes, 14s, 17, 18s, 19s and 20s, with the lighter green on the cab fronts, extending over the whole cab on 14s.  IIRC, the only main line class in plain green were the 37s. 

 

Bear in mind that the locos were not not referred to by those class numbers in those pre-TOPS days, so that what we think of as a class 20 was an 'English Electric 1,000hp Type 1 Diesel-Electric Bo-Bo', an awkward method of identifying things that was much improved by TOPS.  The 6" stripes also appeared on Warships, cantrail level on the prototype D600 series (class 41) and at mid-side level on the D800s (classes 42/3).  Two white stripes were used on BRCW Type 2s and 3s (classes 26/7 and 33) and Brush Type 2s (class 31), along with white window surrounds.

 

Some diesel and electric locos were turned out in steam liveries in the late 50s and early 60s, including Manchester-Sheffield-Wath EM1s in lined mixed traffic black and lined green, and EM2s in lined green, and the pre-1955 modernisation plan diesels, the Ivatt twins and 10201/2/3, effectively the pre-production class 40s, in lined green.  Shunting engines were in unlined green post 1956 (some ran in black livery a good time after this) except for the Southampton Docks Ruston/Hornsbys, forget the tops class number now, which had 2 tone green cab front and backs, and white roofs IIRC.

 

There were plenty of variations on the WR, which experimented with Westerns in 'Desert Sand', 'Golden Ochre', plain maroon and plain green.  Warships, including some operating out of Waterloo, were painted plain maroon in the mid 60s.  The ER had a go with some Brush Type 2s (31s) as well, with a sort of Ochre and a Blue livery, complete with the white stripes and window surrounds.  Company prototypes, 'Deltic', 'Lion', 'Falcon' and eventually 'Kestrel' appeared in whatever the company wanted to paint them in.  

 

The 'Types' are a product of the 1955 modernisation plan, which envisaged 4 types of locomotives (not including shunting engines) to cover all work on a mixed traffic basis, and invited tenders to supply locos on that basis.  Type 1 was a 650-1.000hp power band, Type 2 was 1,001+-1,499, Type 3 was 1,500-1,999, and Type 4 was 2,000+.  In the event a further Type, 5, was needed of which the production Deltics were the only examples for some time.  The power bands were represented in the first digit of the TOPS  codes (except class 20, a minor anomaly that I am not going to make an issue about!).  A further Type, 6, appeared later, but was never referred to as such as TOPS was well established by then!

 

There does not seem to have ever been any attempt to apply liveries to locomotives designed for different types of traffic as there had been with steam locos; the Modernisation Plan diesels were all intended to be mixed traffic general purpose locos anyway.  Nor does the 'Type' or power band seem to have any direct relation to the livery applied.  The BR Derby Type 2s we now think of as classes 24 and 25 were included in one class, despite having two different engines of different ratings and different bogies and cab profiles; earlier locos were in plain green with a lower body white stripe and later ones in Brush Type 4 (47) type 2 tone.

 

Basically, everything was the same except when it was different!

 

 

 

This is not quite correct. 

 

Certain 45s were painted in Toton economy green (on which I am far from an expert - but Russ Saxton can give precise details) during the late 1960s. They were simply plain green. Other classes may have been done, but not in such numbers IIRC. 

 

Also many areas used the ER loco classification pre-TOPS and so an EE Type 1 became D10/3 which is not quite so cumbersome; and makes it a PITA to read early 1960s WTT appendices if you don't know the codes. 

 

The ER only "had a go" with two Brush 2s - or D13/1s - D5578 was in plain blue, and D5579 was golden ochre, but with stripes the same as the green ones. 

 

Certain members of the type 2 classes 24, 25, 26, 27. and 29 were turned out in two-tone green, in addition to their larger relatives. 

 

Here is D5382 in 2-tone green (unknown photographer) in the mid-60s. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by jonny777

[D9020 Nimbus]

Weren't the original 1955 designations types A, B and C? ISTR the four (later 5) types came later when the type 3s (33/35/37) were ordered?

 

The class 20 isn't the only class whose initial digit doesn't match its type. Others are class 30 (original Brush type 2/Mirrlees) and class 31 (Brush type 2 with EE engine). Interesting in the case of the class 20 though, since classes 18 and 19 didn't exist.

[slilley]

Sort of, which is to say that the intention was that it was to be the same colour but the spec was so vague that it allowed paint manufacturers to use different ingredients which caused them to age differently. As they aged they changed shade so giving the impression that different shades of Deep Bronze Green was used.

There’s a big file of correspondence on this matter at TNA.

Modern paint technology has eliminated this problem for preservationists.

The National Archives is a great source of info on this subject. The light green band on the Hymeks is the same as that on the Deltics.JF Harrison hated it and wanted it changed on the last few Delticsand Hymeks to the lighter colour used on the Brush Type 4s. I have a copy of the letter from Ted Wilkes  to Mr Simmett who headed up the design team at Brush on this very subject.

[RLBH]

Weren't the original 1955 designations types A, B and C? ISTR the four (later 5) types came later when the type 3s (33/35/37) were ordered?

 

The class 20 isn't the only class whose initial digit doesn't match its type. Others are class 30 (original Brush type 2/Mirrlees) and class 31 (Brush type 2 with EE engine). Interesting in the case of the class 20 though, since classes 18 and 19 didn't exist.

The Class 20 also has much more power than the other Type 1 locomotives, and more at the rail than even some of the less powerful Type 2s. It also has a 75mph maximum speed, like a Type 2, compared to the 60mph of Type 1s.

 

I'm therefore firmly of the belief that the Class 20 is really a Type 2 pretending to be a Type 1. Given a second cab and a train heating boiler, it would have knocked the other Type 2s into a cocked hat