Loco Changes On the WCML

[Evertrainz]

In the early 60s how common would loco changes be on the WCML? I've seen diesel—electric and vice versa, how about steam?

 

When electrification was heading south towards Euston would there have been any cases where a "dead" electric was towed with a train south to London, then that train + dead electric piloted back north by diesel until it reached a live wire section? I'm getting the feeling crack trains such as the Royal Scot was full-diesel until electrification was officially completed til Euston..

 

Were there any other big named trains that went through a loco change then? Any double changes, where longer distance trains started on diesel, changed to electric, then went back to diesel?

 

Understandably all I can seem to find pointers to loco changes on are trains to or from the Liverpool-Manchester-Birmingham area, but it would be interesting to say the least, to imagine a service that started from London til Northampton by EE type 4, then taken by an early electric to Manchester, then finished journey up north by steam.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Evertrainz

[DY444]

The electrification worked its way south from Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe in stages to Stafford, Nuneaton, Rugby and finally to Euston.  I believe the policy at the time was that as many trains as possible were to be electrically worked over the live sections.  Whilst there were no doubt many exceptions in practice, the principle was that trains originating in Manchester and Liverpool would be worked as far south as possible with electric traction. 

 

Trains to/from Preston and points north were more likely to retain diesels south of Crewe to avoid two engine changes but I have an idea that some did change twice when the change point was Nuneaton then Rugby.  My perception is that steam was relatively rare south of Crewe once electric working started.

 

No doubt others will be along to correct/amplify/add to this.  

Edited December 18, 2018 by DY444

[Pete the Elaner]

It is unlikely that many long distance services would call at Northampton. That is considered a diversion away from the main line.

[Fat Controller]

More likely they would change at Bletchley; certain freight services were diverted via the Oxford- Bletchley line, changing locos there to increase mileage under the wires. The most notable of these were the china-clay services to Staffordshire, which made a considerable diversion to do so.

[Pete the Elaner]

More likely they would change at Bletchley; certain freight services were diverted via the Oxford- Bletchley line, changing locos there to increase mileage under the wires. The most notable of these were the china-clay services to Staffordshire, which made a considerable diversion to do so.

I was told that some Inter-City services stopped at Bletchley before Milton Keynes Central station was built. It is hard to think of Bletchley as a major station now, but the removal of the Oxford line would have decreased its importance.

It seems just as likely that the line was energised in 1 stage between Rugby & Euston though.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't recall changes at Bletchley - I think they went through in one hit of energisation south of Rugby as far as loco workings were concerned.  Equally I'm not sure to what extent loco changes occurred at Stafford although they definitely occurred at Nuneation.

 

Best information will be from contemporaneous magazines.

[Pannier Tank]

I was told that some Inter-City services stopped at Bletchley before Milton Keynes Central station was built.

 

Bletchley was served by "The Shamrock"  at least in the "Up" Direction. Often with "14 on" it would have to draw forward to let passengers in the rear coaches alight. The Station Master was always in attendance to make sure everything went ahead without delay.

 

I don't recall changes at Bletchley - I think they went through in one hit of energisation south of Rugby as far as loco workings were concerned.  

There were very little, if any Loco Changes taking place at Bletchley.

[08221]

The Perth express used to stop at Bletchley in the 1970s. I used to get it back from Euston to Bletchley after watching Chelsea play evening games at the Bridge with my dad.

 

Quote a lot of expresses used to stop at Bletchley prior to CMK opening.

[Rugd1022]

Steam was still surprisingly very active at Nuneaton and Rugby during the diesel - electric and vice versa changes were taking place, well into 1965. Leading up to the full energising south of Nuneaton, much overtime was to be had by Rugby, Northampton and Bletchley crews when the wires were being put up, with plenty of Black 5s, 8Fs and Ivatts in use during the night and at weekends, as well as the newer and locally based EE Type 1s, Sulzer Type 2s and EE Type 4s. The odd Brush Type 2 was also used on these jobs as some Rugby men signed them.

 

These classic Bill Wright shots from March '65 give a good idea of what the changes were like...

 

 

 

Before he died I had a nice chat online with Bill and asked him if he took many shots at Rugby in this period, sadly he only managed a handful of shots there in March '65 while he was doing various other locations on the WCML and much further north, colour film was so expensive then that he had to pick and choose what he took.

 

Even after the current was switched on all the way to Euston, there was still a fair amount of diesel actively under the wires om some passenger workings with EE Type 4s being used on Rugby - Northampton - Bletchley stoppers into 1967. The AM10s arrived quite early in the grand scheme of things but the EE Type 4s filled in nicely until all of the new units had been delivered and full crew training was implemented. During 1965 until June 1966 these Type 4s were also employed on fill in turns on Rugby - Market Harborough - Peterborough locals, hauling short sets of Stanier coaching stock. Rugby Midland must have been a visual feast at the time, my Dad was never much of a railway enthusiast but did tell me occasionally what it was like back then, I was just a toddler at the time.

 

 

[Pannier Tank]

These classic Bill Wright shots from March '65 give a good idea of what the changes were like...

 

 

 I note all three variations of the EE Type 4 and the early a.c. Electrics, excellent nostalgic photographs, thank you for sharing.

[Pannier Tank]

Quote a lot of expresses used to stop at Bletchley prior to CMK opening.

 

There were also a few un-scheduled stops when close running Up Expresses failed to pick up sufficient water at Castlethorpe Troughs. I remember one summers evening 46231 Duchess of Atholl having to stop on the Up Fast at Bletchley Station to take on Water. My Father and I received an impromptu Shower whilst the Fireman was using the Steam Coal Pusher and Water Slack Pipe!!! 

 

Edited Loco Number - Thanks to "Pete The Elaner" for pointing out my error

Edited December 18, 2018 by Pannier Tank

[Pete the Elaner]

There were also a few un-scheduled stops when close running Up Expresses failed to pick up sufficient water at Castlethorpe Troughs. I remember one summers evening 46232 Duchess of Atholl having to stop on the Up Fast at Bletchley Station to take on Water. My Father and I received an impromptu Shower whilst the Fireman was using the Steam Coal Pusher and Water Slack Pipe!!! 

Atholl was 31. Montrose was 32.

[jonny777]

Steam was still surprisingly very active at Nuneaton and Rugby during the diesel - electric and vice versa changes were taking place, well into 1965. Leading up to the full energising south of Nuneaton, much overtime was to be had by Rugby, Northampton and Bletchley crews when the wires were being put up, with plenty of Black 5s, 8Fs and Ivatts in use during the night and at weekends, as well as the newer and locally based EE Type 1s, Sulzer Type 2s and EE Type 4s. The odd Brush Type 2 was also used on these jobs as some Rugby men signed them.

 

These classic Bill Wright shots from March '65 give a good idea of what the changes were like...

 

RY D342 & D224 Rugby Midland 27th March 1967.jpg

 

BW MARCH 1965a.jpg

 

Before he died I had a nice chat online with Bill and asked him if he took many shots at Rugby in this period, sadly he only managed a handful of shots there in March '65 while he was doing various other locations on the WCML and much further north, colour film was so expensive then that he had to pick and choose what he took.

 

 

 

 

Bill Wright? Was he known otherwise as BarkingBill? 

[Pannier Tank]

Atholl was 31. Montrose was 32.

 

Whoops it should indeed be 46231 ! !

Edited December 18, 2018 by Pannier Tank

[08221]

A couple of unusual loco changes/stoppers at Bletchley in the late 1970’s during Sunday engineering work.

 

47443 has taken over from a class 86 on a northbound express

 

 

 

25051 hauls a class 310 on a Northampton working

 

 

Photos by me, film processed and prints done by my dad!

Edited December 18, 2018 by 08221

[Gibbo675]

Hi Evertainz,

 

My recollections of WCML locomotive changes are from Preston in the early 1970's.

 

This involved the electrics which were mostly classes 81, 85 and 86 working northbound coming off the the train and being exchanged for a pair of class 50's on the big fast expresses or just a single class 50 for the lighter slower workings. It all stopped completely with the electrification of the line all the way to Glasgow in 1974.

 

Trains between Preston and Blackpool and Preston and Manchester were generally class 47 hauled although sometime class 40's were used. The Liverpool, Manchester to Glasgow Edinburgh trains were class 47 hauled to Preston where they were joined and then on northward by an electric, again either class 81, 85 or 86, this train split at Carstairs with the electric on to Glasgow and usually another 47 to Edinburgh, the reverse happening southbound. I can't remember what the traction was between Preston and Carstairs before 1973/1974 on this particular as I was only four years old at the time, it may have been pairs of 40's or pairs of 50's.

 

On the goods side of things I don't really remember seeing locomotive changes although I do remember class 40's changed for classes 81 and 85 on the parcels trains but this seemed to reverse after 1973/1974 when the electrics came off the train for diesels to work them on to Manchester.

 

As for liveries in those days plenty of green class 40's and two tone 47's with a few electrics retaining their white cab roofs and lion crest.

 

Gibbo.

[Fat Controller]

Bill Wright? Was he known otherwise as BarkingBill? 

Barking Bill's site seems to have been active in the last few days. The most recent posting is on 13/12/2018.

[Ronnie MB]

The Pain Train film shows a change from electric to diesel northbound at Crewe.

[DY444]

The Pain Train film shows a change from electric to diesel northbound at Crewe.

 

Yes.  The train depicted was heading towards Preston which was beyond the electrified area at the time.  Trains to/from Preston and beyond continued changing at Crewe until 1973 when the change point was moved to Preston.  The line over Shap was the last part of the electrification from Weaver Jn to Glasgow to be energised and once it was the loco changes at Preston ceased for trains via Crewe to/from Carlisle and beyond.

Edited December 19, 2018 by DY444

[tigerburnie]

Love the Rugby images, though I wasn't there as late as '65, I had started my apprenticeship by then.

[Evertrainz]

The Rugby shots are amazing, I hadn't seen the first one with the type 2 in the background but that second shot is amongst my most favorite rail photos!

 

AL1 takes over from Class 40 at Nuneaton around 3:30 mark. Judging from this video a very significant portion of trains was still led by the Type 4s. I think I'd read on another thread that sometimes loco changes were also done at Nuneaton to save Rugby from congestion.

https://youtu.be/t7AvBeC-Q_U

 

Answering my own question the Royal Scot was worked South by diesel under wires, at least in 1963.

https://flic.kr/p/7r9rJJ

Edited December 19, 2018 by Evertrainz

[96701]

My memory isn't good, but I do remember my dad taking me and my brother to White Hart Lane in the late 1960s. I cannot for the life of me remember the date, nor the exact station that we caught the football special from, it was probably Burnley Central because I remember seeing the left hand side of the steam loco that brought the train in. We stopped at Stockport to change locos and an electric was put on the front to take us to Euston. 

 

My dad told me that it took longer to get to Stockport than it did to get from Stockport to London. The thing that impressed me most as somebody who used to suffer from travel sickness in cars was that I went all the way to London without once feeling bilious. I was hooked on train travel even though Burnley lost and I burst into tears after the final whistle.

 

Now I'm still happy to sit on any train going anywhere (except Derby to Crewe).