Peco Individulay Third Rail + Bullhead track?

[Lacathedrale]

I'm using Peco bullhead to build a layout, and I need to put a third rail in - I've read that the Peco insulator pots are too tall to use with Code 75 and will foul any locos equipped with third rail shoes. Is this the case? I think I might go slightly mad at individually trimming every pot! 

[Right Away]

Would you mean the code 60 conductor rail, used in association with code 75 running rails?

 

If so, I can confirm that my Hornby BIL and HAL stock have no problem with this arrangement using the Peco pots.

 

HOWEVER, I must stress that I have no Bachmann or Hornby EP stock and therefore cannot say whether there is sufficient clearance for their shoegear.

 

[Lacathedrale]

Hi @Right Away that is exactly what I'm talking about - thank you!

[davefromacrossthepond]

This site may help.  http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/articles/modpeco3rdrail.html

[rue_d_etropal]

My understanding with the Peco items is that you can have the rail set lower by not fitting the small rings to the supports. It is in their instructions.

[RJS1977]

One of the GMRC teams experienced difficulties with running the Bachmann S Stock on Peco 3rd/4th rail, but I think this was due to a combination of hasty laying and expansion/contraction problems (the series was filmed during last summer's heatwave).

 

[NIK]

Hi,

 

SMP code75 bullhead with Peco Insulators (without rings) seem a bit marginal on Beggarwood Lane (topic on RMweb). We've found it difficult to get the insulators to stick to the holes in the sleepers and the cork. The insulators seem to be made of a slightly slippery plastic as do the SMP sleepers. Cork is not really an engineering material and probably isn't dense enough unless an adhesive can be found that soaks into the cork before setting.

 

Its not just third rail pickups that can hit the third rail on Beggarwood (and SE28 before it) - it can be misplaced sand pipes as well and even bogie sideframes if they are over wide.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks for the tips - I'll make sure to get the 3rd rail  as reasonably close as possible without fouling anything obvious - the layout is full D/E so no requirement to worry about sandpipes at this stage. 

 

To be clear, I'm fine to fit the 3rd rail and THEN ballast, right? My thoughts were to get it all down and spray with sleeper grime, then go back and pick out the rail sides and insulators as required.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Lacathedrale

[Pete the Elaner]

I have been advised to use a brass pin instead of plastic pot because it should be stronger. This should allow the conductor rail to be mounted a little lower too.

3rd rail should prototypically sit quite a bit higher than the rail, but unlike the real railway, we have to clean the rail tops.

Dropping the conductor rail to the same level as the running rail is a compromise. It is up to the modeller to decide if it is acceptable or not.

[johnb]

I have successfully used brass pins to fix the 3rd rail, a dab of white paint then some weathering makes the subterfuge unnoticeable. I have used it alongside the plastic pots and the difference is negligible in 4mm.

 

If modelling SR 3rd rail then prototypically the 3rd rail should be 3ins (75mm) higher than the running rails. However that works out at 1mm higher  in 4mm scale. It is not noticeable when looking down on a layout.

All my 3rd rail on my OO layout Whitecross Street is at running rail level and I am quite content with that. It avoids any conflict with model 3rd rail pickup shoes and sandpipes or any drooping elements of the trains. Track cleaning is also considerably easier.

 

John+

[Lacathedrale]

I've not got a huge amount of conductor rail to lay - two platform faces of about 4' each, and another 5' of double track. Given the relatively modest needs I think I'll try with the peco chairs (especially since I've got them), and then if that fails I'll yank them out and use brass pins with the rail soldered in ontop of them. I've heard the peco plastic isn't particularly good for gluing - I was planning on using MEK or butanone?

 

From what I can gather:

• 3rd rail should be on the outside
  • except at platforms, where it should be inside
• 3rd rail should be boarded in where non-PW staff may be walking (i.e. near goods yard entrance)
• 3rd rail should not be put in a position where a shoe would hit the 'side' of the rail i.e. not against the straight road of a turnout, unless there is a ramp midway for the shoe of a loco on the curved route to rise up to it.

I have a few small questions I hope aren't too much of a bother:

• What are the standard conductor rail lengths that I should be cutting to? 
• How long should the gradient up/down onto the rail be? I'm assuming a scale 2' or so? 
• Is there a distance out from the end of the sleeper I should be fixing? not specifically, but should I err towards the rail or the sleeper end?

[johnb]

Have a look at this webpage obtained via the Southern Railway E Group.

 

http://www.clag.org.uk/3rd-4th.html

 

It will give you everyting that you never thought you'd need to know about 3rd rail and indeed 4th rail. It covers both Southern and LT, they differ quite a bit in places so don't be put off by the 4th rail info. As for lead in gradients Southern just bend the rail down, it's considerably longer than 2ft and LT use purpose built ramps

 

The E group website itself on http://www.semgonline.com/home.html

is also well worh a punt through.

 

John

 

[zarniwhoop]

On 09/02/2019 at 08:40, Right Away said:

Would you mean the code 60 conductor rail, used in association with code 75 running rails?

 

If so, I can confirm that my Hornby BIL and HAL stock have no problem with this arrangement using the Peco pots.

 

 

I thought that Peco conductor rail was code 82 ? I fitted some of that on my test track, and it was fine with the Bachmann CEPs. But with Hornby BIL and HAL units it was marginal, and they don't half make a mess if they dislodge it.

 

When (if) I get a proper layout I'll go with brass pins and a lower conductor rail.

[johnb]

The Peco conductor rail that I have is code 60 and is labelled as such. I always leave the little ring off the bottom of the insulators as otherwise it is too high even with Peco code 100 track.

 

I think that the Hornby dummy pickups are set at the nominal scale height, i.e. at the prototype 3ins (75mm) above running rails (1mm in 4mm scale) if the conductor rail is also at the scale height then interference is very probable with even the slightest misalignment. Been there found that out, so that's why I set the conductor rail level with the running rails/

 

John