Rugby Union

[tigerburnie]

16 hours ago, whart57 said:

All the parties involved have created this problem by trying to avoid the logic of a sports club going bust. It was accepted that either or both clubs would have to drop into the Championship but from a financial point of view that was the least attractive option. Huge drop in revenue but the expenses of running a club at Championship level, especially if promotion back to the Premiership is expected within two years at the most, would exceed that likely revenue. Better would have been to reserve a couple of slots in National 2. For both these ex-Premiership clubs, recruiting a team of Championship and National 1 level players would be affordable, their gates would go a long way to covering the costs and the fans would get some rugby, albeit at a lower level for 3-4 years. Meanwhile the infrastructure could be built back. The problem for Wasps though would be a ground to play on, renting sizeable football stadiums only makes sense with five figure crowds paying Premiership ticket prices.

 

When Glasgow Rangers got busted down for financial irregularities they went to the bottom of what was then the Scottish pyramid. It took five years to get back but there was wholesale fumigation of the back office while the team took on Annan Athletic and Berwick Rangers.

Caused quite a stir in Arbroath and Montrose when all the Rangers fans turned up, they wouldn't all fit in the tiny grounds.

[Torper]

Caused a stir in Forfar too when the Loons managed to beat Rangers in a cup match although video suggests that Rangers fans, maybe fearing the worst from the Mighty Forfar, didn't turn up in such enormous numbers as might normally be expected - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfz5uc0GJ9Y (apologies for soccer video on rugby thread).

 

 

 

Turning back to rugby, current financial problems may seem slight, and the game may have to change drastically, if this comes to fruition:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65088050

 

[tigerburnie]

Back to European Cup action this week, strange format this year, Edinburgh visit Leicester Tigers tonight

[tigerburnie]

Well we won the slug fest in the mud, not pretty but effective, I doubt Diamond will regret his comment about Edinburgh smashing Jasper Weise, one day he might learn to keep his mouth shut, but I doubt it. Good luck today for the English and Welsh sides, the Irish have enough luck and there's no Scots left to cheer.

[Re6/6]

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/watch-gloucester-lock-freddie-clarke-jaw-dropping-dive-to-score-in-the-corner

[tigerburnie]

2 hours ago, Re6/6 said:

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/watch-gloucester-lock-freddie-clarke-jaw-dropping-dive-to-score-in-the-corner

Jasper Weise did one almost identical on friday against Edinburgh for the Tigers.

[grandadbob]

Saw both matches (along with others) and enjoyed them.  Really felt sorry for Gloucester though after the fantastic effort they put in.

[rockershovel]

Is there really a Scottish football team called the Loons? 

[tigerburnie]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

Is there really a Scottish football team called the Loons? 

Forfar Athletic to you, there's the Lichties near me(that's Arbroath)

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Forfar Athletic to you, there's the Lichties near me(that's Arbroath)

Ah, now Lichties does sound like authentic frontier gibberish! 

 

There's an opticians in Peterborough called Scrivens, which puts me in mind of an exclamation by some sort of stage Scot, perhaps in a Terry Pratchett book or Evelyn Waugh's quite wonderful description of the dinner at Mugg Castle...

[Torper]

19 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Is there really a Scottish football team called the Loons? 

 

It's from the Doric.  Loon = boy or young man.  Thus "Fit like loon?", a fairly common expression, = How are you, young man?  Back in 1885 the second string of Angus FC broke away and called themselves Forfar Athletic.  As they were the youngsters from the old side they were referred to as the loons, and the name stuck.  Doric, incidentally, is the Scots language as spoken in north-east Scotland.  Forfar's rugby club is called Strathmore, but unfortunately does not appear to have a nickname.

 

I haven't heard anyone use the expression "Crivens" for a long time, but it used to be common parlance for both The Broons and Oor Wullie,

Edited April 3, 2023 by Torper

[Torper]

Just as an OT addendum to the above, Wiktionary suggests that the term "Crivens" was largely used in the Dundee area, and as the Broons and Oor Wullie both emanated from a Dundee publisher it's perhaps not suprising that they used the term.  There's a story that back in poll tax days an attempt was made to get demonstrators to abandon the cry of "Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, Out Out Out" and instead shout "Crivvens, jings and help ma boab, let's put Thatcher oot o' a job".   Sadly, it never caught on.

[rockershovel]

Moving onto a slightly more serious tone, the accounting figures emerging about losses in the Prem defy explanation. 

 

Turning to individual clubs, London Irish are apparently on the verge of collapse, but hope to be saved by "an American consortium"..... Good luck with THAT one!

[tigerburnie]

It's not all doom and gloom and compared to soccer it's peanuts, people do not make money out of sport teams in the UK. Saracens recently posted their accounts, about half a million in the red which is nothing, Tigers invested £13M to pay off all debts with a share sale, so no increased debt there either and the new hotel is making money too. Covid and playing behind closed doors, then losing home games when Worcester and Wasps went belly up cost clubs £Millions, this will be recovered slowly.

[rockershovel]

I've just seen an article about the Prem "relaunching itself making use of the experience of The Hundred" as an 11-team league with no relegation of promotion, "to create a new audience" with control basically sold to an outside investment group. 

 

Excuse my lack of enthusiasm for any part of this proposal...

[tigerburnie]

They have already sold part of it to CVC, so that sounds a load of rubbish, the plans for 24/25 season is for two leagues of 10 pro teams and no Championship, with a Nat1 north and south under it, there will be relegation and promotion, this already being discussed at club level seemingly.

[rockershovel]

4 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

They have already sold part of it to CVC, so that sounds a load of rubbish, the plans for 24/25 season is for two leagues of 10 pro teams and no Championship, with a Nat1 north and south under it, there will be relegation and promotion, this already being discussed at club level seemingly.

I've just seen another article saying something else again... TBH,I don't see why anyone would want to "build on the success of the Hundred" considering that it has yet to show a profit and the clashes with the "red-ball" game are escalating. 

 

Sounds like the truth is that nothing is agreed and the chaos will continue. 

[tigerburnie]

European Cup tonight we are in Dublin against our arch rivals, playing most of Ireland will be tricky be we can do it COME ON YOU TIGERRRrrrrsssssss.

[whart57]

On 04/04/2023 at 19:56, tigerburnie said:

It's not all doom and gloom and compared to soccer it's peanuts, people do not make money out of sport teams in the UK. Saracens recently posted their accounts, about half a million in the red which is nothing, Tigers invested £13M to pay off all debts with a share sale, so no increased debt there either and the new hotel is making money too. Covid and playing behind closed doors, then losing home games when Worcester and Wasps went belly up cost clubs £Millions, this will be recovered slowly.

 

The Glazers seem to have done rather well out of Manchester United, but yes, that is the general rule. However the owners of Man City and Newcastle aim to benefit in less tangible ways through their sportswashing and the owners of Leicester City are using the publicity and kudos to raise their family's profile in Thailand. Other Premier League owners aren't expecting to make a regular income out of football, their ownerships are like hedge fund investments. Barring relegation a Premier League "franchise" grows in value and as the economics of sport are influenced by different things to other investments club ownership does act like a hedge and a wealth store. And then there are the owners who are stonkingly rich men indulging themselves in a hobby. Until last year there were two in SW6, Abramovich at Chelsea and Shahid Khan at Fulham. The Khans at Fulham are an interesting case. They own Jacksonville, one of the lesser franchises in the NFL, as well as Fulham - who might also be called one of the lesser franchises in the Premier League. Khan took over from Mohammed Al Fayed, who many consider to be one of the last old-style owners of a top football club. Al Fayed restored Fulham to its traditional position as a second tier club and then a bit more. The Khans struggled with the concept of relegation for a while but I keep getting the sense that the real purpose of their Fulham investment is to provide a base to move their Jacksonville NFL operation to London. Whenever the NFL toys with the idea of franchises outside the US, the Khans are there pushing for a London franchise. The NFL have learned from previous experiments that a European league made up of NFL rejects and old warhorses doesn't work, so if it ever does go global I expect the gridiron to be painted on the Craven Cottage turf.

 

The point here though is that almost none of that applies to rugby union. There have been a handful of rich men willing to indulge their love of rugby but none have been Abramovich or Shahid Khan rich. Or as rich as the Thai family owning Leicester or even as rich as Mohamed Al Fayed. And the non-match day income in rugby is just small change in football terms. The future for rugby lies in more modest ambitions, and here lies one problem. Leicester, Bath, Gloucester and Exeter have all retained their strong local bases. A modest share call will have enough supporters and local businessmen chipping in. What of the clubs that left their traditional homes and are now tenants in football grounds dozens of miles away. Or clubs like Sale who existed in the shadow of football and rugby league?

Edited April 7, 2023 by whart57

[tigerburnie]

I guess it's going to be the law of the jungle, those that can survive will, already talk of a "superleague" though I cannot see how that will work, eventually the world will shrink a bit and unless someone makes an electric plane that an go from the southern to the northern hemisphere, it may be that rugby goes back to it's roots as a semi pro game.

[rockershovel]

5 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

The Glazers seem to have done rather well out of Manchester United, but yes, that is the general rule. However the owners of Man City and Newcastle aim to benefit in less tangible ways through their sportswashing and the owners of Leicester City are using the publicity and kudos to raise their family's profile in Thailand. Other Premier League owners aren't expecting to make a regular income out of football, their ownerships are like hedge fund investments. Barring relegation a Premier League "franchise" grows in value and as the economics of sport are influenced by different things to other investments club ownership does act like a hedge and a wealth store. And then there are the owners who are stonkingly rich men indulging themselves in a hobby. Until last year there were two in SW6, Abramovich at Chelsea and Shahid Khan at Fulham. The Khans at Fulham are an interesting case. They own Jacksonville, one of the lesser franchises in the NFL, as well as Fulham - who might also be called one of the lesser franchises in the Premier League. Khan took over from Mohammed Al Fayed, who many consider to be one of the last old-style owners of a top football club. Al Fayed restored Fulham to its traditional position as a second tier club and then a bit more. The Khans struggled with the concept of relegation for a while but I keep getting the sense that the real purpose of their Fulham investment is to provide a base to move their Jacksonville NFL operation to London. Whenever the NFL toys with the idea of franchises outside the US, the Khans are there pushing for a London franchise. The NFL have learned from previous experiments that a European league made up of NFL rejects and old warhorses doesn't work, so if it ever does go global I expect the gridiron to be painted on the Craven Cottage turf.

 

The point here though is that almost none of that applies to rugby union. There have been a handful of rich men willing to indulge their love of rugby but none have been Abramovich or Shahid Khan rich. Or as rich as the Thai family owning Leicester or even as rich as Mohamed Al Fayed. And the non-match day income in rugby is just small change in football terms. The future for rugby lies in more modest ambitions, and here lies one problem. Leicester, Bath, Gloucester and Exeter have all retained their strong local bases. A modest share call will have enough supporters and local businessmen chipping in. What of the clubs that left their traditional homes and are now tenants in football grounds dozens of miles away. Or clubs like Sale who existed in the shadow of football and rugby league?

Man U were big enough to fir the Glazers to loot them by loading them with debt and siphoning the cash away.

 

Jackson ville have been signed up to play two games in London the past two years. I'll be very surprised not to see them again this year

Edited April 7, 2023 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Thought provoking piece in today's Telegraph about the wider implications of Leicester's recent comprehensive defeat, and the necessary steps required re the Prem structure. 

[tigerburnie]

Leicester were fighting relegation three years ago and are on an upward climb, Leinster with all the finance and international players they want are a decade ahead of us. Leo Cullen learnt how to succeed when he was a Leicester player. Leicester didn't actually plan our succession as well as he did at Leinster, sport is cyclical, no-one remains unbeatable, no-one.

[whart57]

I have been reading about the magical thinking going on at Wasps. If this plan works it will really show up what is wrong with the rugby union set up. Wasps after all are little more than a name right now, and a lot of people were burned by the club's failure. Yet the name was big enough for the RU powers that be to grant them a slot in the Championship and to deem that their training ground in Henley in Arden is fit to host second tier rugby. The owners of Ealing and other second and third tier clubs might have a view on that given how they have had to shell out to improve facilities over the years or be threatened with relegation.

 

Then the talk is of returning to the Premiership for the 2024-25 season, now playing in a brand new stadium somewhere in the M40 corridor.

 

This prospectus - and prospectus it is as it is aimed at those people with the odd million to spare to put into the club - doesn't recognise that this is a sporting organisation. It's not like business where innovation, marketing and lobbying allow growth. Rugby's rules are fixed, the league structure is not very flexible and being good is not enough, or even relevant. You can stink the place out as long as you are better than the other guys.

 

 

[tigerburnie]

There's a saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is lunacy, seems to fit this to a tee. The game, other clubs, fans, bond holders and other creditors shafted by Wasps and the RFU, if they allow this to happen, are letting it happen again!!

It is reckoned a 24k stadium, hotel and conference facilities would cost around a £100 million and take around 5 years to get through planning and be built, bearing in mind it is only around 6 months ago Wasps could not find £30-40 million to keep afloat, where are they going to find close to treble that? Someone somewhere is really not thinking things through here.