Rugby Union

[2750Papyrus]

On 13/09/2023 at 00:30, St Enodoc said:

A good approach would be for the players to comply with the Laws, then everything would be fine and dandy...

In any professional sport, players will always test the referee and see what they can get away with.  Sadly, this applies to much amateur sport also.

[rockershovel]

Wales v Portugal... might politely be described as "unexciting" so far 

[EddieB]

Well deserved, Fiji!

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, EddieB said:

Well deserved, Fiji!

If there was any justice in rugby, or a serious intention to develop the game by backing winners - which is surely what sport is about - there would be an EGM after the RWC. 

 

Italy would be given their cards from the 6N, there would be a 10-year moratorium on the mention of Georgia, Romania or any other Eastern European side. Japan, Fiji and Tonga would be invited to the Amazon tournament in the autumn and the best of the 3, invited to the 6N each year.

 

 

[BoD]

1 minute ago, rockershovel said:

If there was any justice in rugby, or a serious intention to develop the game by backing winners - which is surely what sport is about - there would be an EGM after the RWC. 

 

Italy would be given their cards from the 6N, there would be a 10-year moratorium on the mention of Georgia, Romania or any other Eastern European side. Japan, Fiji and Tonga would be invited to the Amazon tournament in the autumn and the best of the 3, invited to the 6N each year.

 

 

Surely they should be invited into the Southern Hemisphere 6N, or whatever it is they have down there. 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

If there was any justice in rugby, or a serious intention to develop the game by backing winners - which is surely what sport is about - there would be an EGM after the RWC. 

 

Italy would be given their cards from the 6N, there would be a 10-year moratorium on the mention of Georgia, Romania or any other Eastern European side. Japan, Fiji and Tonga would be invited to the Amazon tournament in the autumn and the best of the 3, invited to the 6N each year.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, BoD said:

Surely they should be invited into the Southern Hemisphere 6N, or whatever it is they have down there. 

Money, money, money.

 

It's a rich man's person's world.

[rockershovel]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Money, money, money.

 

It's a rich man's person's world.

However the "money, money" model is breaking down. Italy can't compete in the 6N, Georgia certainly won't be any better and Romania ... 

 

NZ won't accept their dominance of SH game being eroded by opportunities for South Seas players elsewhere. 

 

SH game is still a notch above the NH game. They already have a development side - Argentina. 

[EddieB]

Italy have won the odd game in the six nations.  My musing has been towards finding a way to let the "second tier" nations have a chance to compete with the big boys.  What if there was a two-division tournament with promotion and relegation?   Six teams in division one, with one up/one down would simply mean that the sixth place would rotate between Italy and another.  What if it were two up/two down such that one of the original big 5 ended up playing in the lower division?  Too much of a price to pay?

 

I also wonder what could be achieved were RU to be more strongly encouraged at grass-roots level in the likes of Nigeria - they do play (both sevens and the full game) but surely have yet to attain anything like their potential.

[The Fatadder]

After promising signs in the Argentina game, it seemed (despite the win) to be back to normal against Japan.   Once again with the team unable to think on the fly, clearly the game plan said to kick and they just kept on doing it despite the fact it had failed umpteen times before.   The line out was also particularly terrible with the number of schoolboy errors...  

 

Still, they did at least manage to grind out the bonus point win at least.  My biggest worry now is Borthwick trying to force Farrell into the selection which will no doubt (as it usually does) make England a worse team.  Best I can hope for, they bring him on for the final 20 in the Chilie game after we have already pretty much wrapped it up, he goes and does his usual no arm high tackle into a Chilie player's head and gets himself another ban.....

[grandadbob]

I wouldn't be at all surprised If Borthwick starts him against Chile and leaves George Ford on the bench.  

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, EddieB said:

Italy have won the odd game in the six nations.  My musing has been towards finding a way to let the "second tier" nations have a chance to compete with the big boys.  What if there was a two-division tournament with promotion and relegation?   Six teams in division one, with one up/one down would simply mean that the sixth place would rotate between Italy and another.  What if it were two up/two down such that one of the original big 5 ended up playing in the lower division?  Too much of a price to pay?

 

I also wonder what could be achieved were RU to be more strongly encouraged at grass-roots level in the likes of Nigeria - they do play (both sevens and the full game) but surely have yet to attain anything like their potential.

"Won the odd game" is right; when was the last one?

 

"Development" happens organically. Argentina pulled themselves up by their own boot-straps, after their RWC performance against NZ they couldn't be denied any longer. 

 

Japan are also a case of self-starting. They have a strong local league with plenty of funds and don't like to lose at what they do.

 

Fiji have been the front-runners among the South Seas sides for some time, quite where they go next remains to be seen. 

 

Italy were a commercial venture. The sale of a share in the old 5N produced a commercially motivated decision to change the structure and have 3 games in each round. The words cart, horse come to mind; the backers are now stuck with the problem of replacing Italy from a pool of candidates of even less value. 

 

 

[BoD]

22 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

The words cart, horse come to mind; the backers are now stuck with the problem of replacing Italy from a pool of candidates of even less value. 

Or going back to the 5N.

 

Or even 4N !!?

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

Or going back to the 5N.

 

Or even 4N !!?

No, no.

 

The problem, as its new backers saw it, was that the 5N always had one team not playing. It was entirely possible for the final weekend to consist of two dead rubbers.

 

Most supporters were really more interested in notional results - the Triple Crown, the Grand Slam - for which no actual trophy existed and more often than not, were not achieved. 

 

They specifically wanted a European "derby" game (not least because France, by definition could not win the Triple Crown).

 

The decision to revamp the format to include 6 teams makes good sense, in TV terms. The problem is that it has not so far, proven possible to do do without diluting the quality of the product. There is also the illusion of "development" because the scoring system operates against the concept of senior nations putting out teams of reduced strength. Once the Italians resorted to obvious gamesmanship to mitigate their expected trouncing at Twickenham, it was"game over" in supporters' eyes.

[rockershovel]

9 hours ago, EddieB said:

Italy have won the odd game in the six nations.  My musing has been towards finding a way to let the "second tier" nations have a chance to compete with the big boys.  What if there was a two-division tournament with promotion and relegation?   Six teams in division one, with one up/one down would simply mean that the sixth place would rotate between Italy and another.  What if it were two up/two down such that one of the original big 5 ended up playing in the lower division?  Too much of a price to pay?

 

I also wonder what could be achieved were RU to be more strongly encouraged at grass-roots level in the likes of Nigeria - they do play (both sevens and the full game) but surely have yet to attain anything like their potential.

The results of trying to "encourage the sport" in one or other of the African kleptocracies are well known....

 

[whart57]

13 hours ago, rockershovel said:

"Development" happens organically. Argentina pulled themselves up by their own boot-straps, after their RWC performance against NZ they couldn't be denied any longer. 

 

Japan are also a case of self-starting. They have a strong local league with plenty of funds and don't like to lose at what they do.

 

Fiji have been the front-runners among the South Seas sides for some time, quite where they go next remains to be seen. 

 

Italy were a commercial venture. The sale of a share in the old 5N produced a commercially motivated decision to change the structure and have 3 games in each round. The words cart, horse come to mind; the backers are now stuck with the problem of replacing Italy from a pool of candidates of even less value.

 

Italy had the misfortune to join the 6N at the start of the professional era. Had they joined ten years earlier the gap between top and bottom would have been less stark, and more bridgeable with the sort of packs around then.

 

Development doesn't happen "organically". Development is a combination of local growth and outside encouragement. Argentina's development has a lot to do with their players coming to play professionally in Europe, the South Pacific nations have their players polished up in New Zealand. Perhaps what Italy did wrong was to try and develop through having their own clubs play in the Celtic league - whatever its called this week.

 

If we switch codes for a moment, there was a "development" success story in rugby league this week. London Broncos fielded a side in the RL Championship against Bradford with not a single northern born or antipodean player in it or on the bench. Mostly Londoners with a few from just beyond the M25 and the odd Midlander. When it comes to developing RL in the capital Broncos have tried everything. It would appear that the combination of commitment to an academy developing young players and a professional side of a good standard for them to aspire to is what works.

 

[rockershovel]

You'd like to think that a city the size of London could produce 13 RL players. There are probably more people playing Quidditch. 

 

It's not a hard game to understand; run, tackle, run, tackle, run, tackle, run, tackle, kick. There are no lineouts, no loose ball play, no meaningful scrums (set or loose). Blatant fouls are largely disregarded and there doesn't appear to be any offside rule. 

 

After all, they produced the London Ravens and Streatham Olympians during the 80s "gridiron" craze. Ravens were a quite sizeable organisation, entirely home grown which sent several players to college scholarships in the US. Olympians were basically run from a gym chain and are still playing. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Development is structural. Italy don't produce enough players. Nor is their home league big enough to support them if they did. They can't progress because they don't have the scantlings

[whart57]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

It's not a hard game to understand; run, tackle, run, tackle, run, tackle, run, tackle, kick. There are no lineouts, no loose ball play, no meaningful scrums (set or loose). Blatant fouls are largely disregarded and there doesn't appear to be any offside rule. 

 

 

Blatant fouls in union are instead endless discussed by officials both on and off the pitch while the players get their wind back before giving one side the chance to kick the ball a long way.

[tigerburnie]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

You'd like to think that a city the size of London could produce 13 RL players. There are probably more people playing Quidditch. 

 

It's not a hard game to understand; run, tackle, run, tackle, run, tackle, run, tackle, kick. There are no lineouts, no loose ball play, no meaningful scrums (set or loose). Blatant fouls are largely disregarded and there doesn't appear to be any offside rule. 

 

After all, they produced the London Ravens and Streatham Olympians during the 80s "gridiron" craze. Ravens were a quite sizeable organisation, entirely home grown which sent several players to college scholarships in the US. Olympians were basically run from a gym chain and are still playing. 

 

 

My son played for the Ravens

[tigerburnie]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Development is structural. Italy don't produce enough players. Nor is their home league big enough to support them if they did. They can't progress because they don't have the scantlings

Italy under 20's finished above England, Scotland and Wales in the last 6 nations, they have a solid youth structure.

[rockershovel]

On 18/09/2023 at 17:54, grandadbob said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised If Borthwick starts him against Chile and leaves George Ford on the bench.  

Well, there you have it... my money is on England misfiring their way to a tedious win against a second-tier Chile. 

 

Nothing will have been resolved. Fiji will repeat their achievement and put them out in the Quarters 

[rockershovel]

Another red card for a clash of heads, this time France v Namibia. 

 

France also suffered a significant loss to injury in an essentially irrelevant game. Time for the organisers to put their thinking caps on, I feel. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by rockershovel

[whart57]

If some group games are "essentially irrelevant" then that means the competition has been expanded too far.

[rockershovel]

16 hours ago, whart57 said:

If some group games are "essentially irrelevant" then that means the competition has been expanded too far.

Agreed. The original versions of the tournament struggled with 8, or 12 teams. Then they were expanded by promoters wanting a longer tournament for commercial reasons. 

 

In doing so, the old distinction between Test and A Internationals was dropped. 

 

The World Championship is realistically contested between the following teams;

 

NZ, Australia. 

 

South Africa 

 

South Seas teams - Western Samoa, Fiji and Tonga with long traditions of playing Test games and a good supply of NZ/Australia level players

 

England, France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland

 

Newcomers Japan and Argentina. Los Pumas because they are clearly "of a standard" and Japan because they clearly mean business. 

 

Add in 3 to make up the numbers - Italy (who have never got beyond the pool stage, or looked likely to) Georgia (who have friends in high places, it seems) and... oh, I don't really know. USA clearly don't mean business, Canada aren't of a sufficient standard. 

 

 

How Namibia qualify, I'm unsure. How the frankly risible Romanian team qualified, who can say? 

[whart57]

In the past the Rugby World Championship has been contested by New Zealand, South Africa and which of Australia, England and France can get their act together. Argentina last time and Ireland are recent additions to that club of maybes. The rest, Pacific Islanders, other six nations teams have always been there to make up the numbers. As have Japan and the North Americans, though the latter have been real disappointments lately. The problem comes when you match those who are just along for the ride against real contenders. Rugby is a very cruel game when sides - and particularly packs - are ill matched. Watching a top level pack push their lesser opponents around the pitch for eighty minutes is not particularly edifying. In the round ball game lesser sides can park the bus, but in rugby that bus gets shoved out of the way.