Can anyone identify these Southern (pre-grouping) carriages?

[jamespetts]

There is an interesting photograph in the Mike Morant Collection on Smugmug of ex-LBSCR H2 Atlantic no. 2424 "Beachy Head" hauling a Brighton to Portsmouth train in 1938.

 

The three carriage train is made up from what look to be non-corridor carriages of pre-grouping origin: they are not the rebuilt LSWR 56ft (ex-48ft) carriages. They are not "birdcage" carriages as they lack the distinctive lookouts. They do not appear to be LBSCR carriages, as their semi-elliptical roof was a design not produced by the LBSCR. They do not appear to be consistent in form (especially the position of the duckets and windows on the brake ends) with the LSWR 48ft non-corridor lavatory carriages (and appear as if they might actually be non-lavatory carriages, although this is nit entirely clear). The roof colours appear to be dark. I suspect that they are unlined, although it is hard to tell from the picture.

 

Does anyone have any idea what these might be?

[Wickham Green]

55 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

There is an interesting photograph in the Mike Morant Collection on Smugmug of ex-LBSCR H2 Atlantic no. 2424 "Beachy Head" hauling a Brighton to Portsmouth train in 1938.

 

The three carriage train is made up from what look to be non-corridor carriages of pre-grouping origin: they are not the rebuilt LSWR 56ft (ex-48ft) carriages. They are not "birdcage" carriages as they lack the distinctive lookouts. They do not appear to be LBSCR carriages, as their semi-elliptical roof was a design not produced by the LBSCR. They do not appear to be consistent in form (especially the position of the duckets and windows on the brake ends) with the LSWR 48ft non-corridor lavatory carriages (and appear as if they might actually be non-lavatory carriages, although this is nit entirely clear). The roof colours appear to be dark. I suspect that they are unlined, although it is hard to tell from the picture.

 

Does anyone have any idea what these might be?

Definitely LSWR ........... there were a number of permutations of door type and/or ducket position combinations on the vans and the centre car looks like it  IS lavvy fitted as there are gaps in the door hinge sequence : probably Brake Third +, Lavvy ( Tri ? ) Compo + Brake Third ........ maybe 54' but without Weddell in front of me I can't check.

[Ian Morgan]

The best place to get questions like that answered is the semgonline email group.

[jamespetts]

 

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Definitely LSWR ........... there were a number of permutations of door type and/or ducket position combinations on the vans and the centre car looks like it  IS lavvy fitted as there are gaps in the door hinge sequence : probably Brake Third +, Lavvy ( Tri ? ) Compo + Brake Third ........ maybe 54' but without Weddell in front of me I can't check.

 

Thank you - that is most helpful.

[jamespetts]

 

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Definitely LSWR ........... there were a number of permutations of door type and/or ducket position combinations on the vans and the centre car looks like it  IS lavvy fitted as there are gaps in the door hinge sequence : probably Brake Third +, Lavvy ( Tri ? ) Compo + Brake Third ........ maybe 54' but without Weddell in front of me I can't check.

 

Thank you - that is most helpful.

[Nick Holliday]

Thanks to Gordon Weddell I think we can identify them fairly well.  The first brake is a 48ft. four compartment lavatory brake third, his Figure 5.20.  BUilt in 1899, two of them, Nos. 450 & 461 were dual brake fitted for Salisbury to Brighton services, which might be the working in the picture.  The second is also 48ft., but a lavatory composite, his figure 5.19.  Nos. 59 and 80 were similarly dual braked, for the same service.  The third vehicle is less clear, but is probably a slightly earlier design, a 48 foot five compartment, non-lavatory, brake third to his figure 5.15. Dating from 1896, several had dual brakes, including 1135, 1144, 1203 and 1217.  As the first two in the set started off with gas lighting, it is likely that the last carriage was similarly equipped, so either 1135 or 1144, as the other two were electrically lit.

[jamespetts]

3 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Thanks to Gordon Weddell I think we can identify them fairly well.  The first brake is a 48ft. four compartment lavatory brake third, his Figure 5.20.  BUilt in 1899, two of them, Nos. 450 & 461 were dual brake fitted for Salisbury to Brighton services, which might be the working in the picture.  The second is also 48ft., but a lavatory composite, his figure 5.19.  Nos. 59 and 80 were similarly dual braked, for the same service.  The third vehicle is less clear, but is probably a slightly earlier design, a 48 foot five compartment, non-lavatory, brake third to his figure 5.15. Dating from 1896, several had dual brakes, including 1135, 1144, 1203 and 1217.  As the first two in the set started off with gas lighting, it is likely that the last carriage was similarly equipped, so either 1135 or 1144, as the other two were electrically lit.

 

That is very helpful, thank you. I do not think that this is a Salisbury to Brighton service, as the locomotive is displaying a Portsmouth route disc, but that does not stop these from being the Salisbury to Brighton carriages, of course.