The Western Way - early stages of a 1930s-based GWR layout

[DCB]

The Welsh valley are certainly different to Devon/Cornwall.   The mode of operations was certainly different with trains being typically three times as long in wales.  That because the full coal trains generally went down hill and only empties had to be hauled uphill.  and empties weigh around 33% as much as fulls so long trains small locos.  The opposite of what most of us like to operate.

During WW2 wagons were "pooled" and instead of a colliery getting its own wagons back from a merchant any old wagon would be used.  A grey mass of wagons replaced the brightly coloured private owners ones and a huge amount of shunting was avoided.

So for pre 1939 you can spend hours sorting brightly coloured and named  incoming wagons into blocks and trains  for different collieries, and outgoing wagons into blocks and trains for different customers.   About 300 wagons and a Pannier tank should provide years of fun.

Then there were local passenger trains, anywhere between 1 and ten coaches depending on the valley,  And long distance trains,to Barry Island 25 miles or even Bristol Zoo most years with suburban coaches and a 56XX.   Anyway, have you ever thought about modelling Devon instead?

[Mikkel]

My vote is on the Welsh Valleys, not enough layouts featuring them. And 56xxs, though not exactly graceful, are nice and workmanlike locos.

 

Have you seen this thread, maybe Penrhos has some more info now he can share: 

 

 

 

[mdvle]

User here on RMweb, The Johnster, seems quite knowledgeable about the South Wales area (though in a later timeframe) so may be worth considering asking.  His layout thread is here

 

 

[mdvle]

13 hours ago, MarshLane said:

In the end, the more I kept trying to justify how I could expand the scenic section, the more a voice just kept shouting, abandon the baseboards and start a fresh.  Which in all honesty was an acknowledgement of several of the comments on here.  Its a shame, because for the first proper free standing baseboards I'd built, they worked well, with the one exception that they were designed for a specific project that didn't go anywhere, and they were heavy.

 

The secret, as such, of being successful in this hobby is accepting that you will make mistakes, go down roads that end up in the wrong place, and redo things.  It is all part of the learning process, and the vast majority of us will change things multiple times as we gain experience in the hobby.

 

So instead of thinking "It's a shame", instead congratulate yourself on making the difficult decision to acknowledge your inner voice and change direction at an early opportunity instead of spending more time/money on continuing with a layout that you had come to feel wasn't what you wanted.

[Harlequin]

@The Johnster 

[MarshLane]

Morning guys,

Thanks for the replies and comments so far. Apologies if these responses are in a different order.

 

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

The secret, as such, of being successful in this hobby is accepting that you will make mistakes, go down roads that end up in the wrong place, and redo things. 

 

Actually, I’d totally agree with that sentiment. I don’t think any of us want to feel that we are wasting our time and money, but like many things in life, saying this isn’t working, let’s change something is usually the answer. I have looked previously at the thread you referenced, but not for a while, so will go have another read through! 
 

The 1950s is an interesting period, the introduction of the 16-ton mineral wagon removes the private owner aspect, as @DavidCBroad commented, but does open the door to some early diesels. Food for thought perhaps.

 

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

My vote is on the Welsh Valleys, not enough layouts featuring them. And 56xxs, though not exactly graceful, are nice and workmanlike locos.

 

Have you seen this thread, maybe Penrhos has some more info now he can share: 

 

 

 

Thanks Mikkel. I hadn’t seen that thread at all. The Cardiff Valleys is a fascinating area that many (including me!) would struggle to realise the volume of traffic or the role it played on the world stage today. Coal, as they say, was definitely king during the steam era.

 

10 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

The Welsh valley are certainly different to Devon/Cornwall.   The mode of operations was certainly different with trains being typically three times as long in wales.  That because the full coal trains generally went down hill and only empties had to be hauled uphill.  and empties weigh around 33% as much as fulls so long trains small locos.  The opposite of what most of us like to operate.

 

So for pre 1939 you can spend hours sorting brightly coloured and named  incoming wagons into blocks and trains  for different collieries, and outgoing wagons into blocks and trains for different customers.   About 300 wagons and a Pannier tank should provide years of fun.

Anyway, have you ever thought about modelling Devon instead?

Thanks David. You touched on one aspect there which is obvious but that I hadn’t considered is that some trains would arrive empty in mixed company formations, in terms of the collieries, but depart empty with a specific company to a specific colliery. So some shunting and rearranging in the hidden sidings will be necessary. I have acquired a few of the 20 odd Private Owner Wagons books to get a bit more of an insight into these fleets.
 

Yes Cardiff area is very different from Devon, but one of the things I decided was that I wanted the opportunity to shunt and have slow moving trains. Yes there were freight workings in Devon, but they would only really have been shunted at Plymouth, Newton Abbot, Exeter or Taunton, and presumably only then if there was local traffic. 
 

I also have an interest in the coal industry, the requirement for locos is Panniers and 5600s around Tondu, which keeps acquisitions in the sub £100 area ... and in all honesty, I took a liking to the Sonic 5600 model!

 

There is also that viewpoint that the Valleys can provide an easy running session of basically watching the trains go by,  or it can be involved with shunting and loco changes. Or just part of the layout could be erected if I just wanted an hour pottering about in sidings and not going anywhere (somehow that seems to typify the average day for a Pannier tank lol!)

 

With the Devon idea that wasn’t really an option. Although I did you with the idea of Cowley Bridge Jn, but decided that again it was restrictive in operating potential.

 

The other advantage with something like Tondu was the variety in modelling. From loco and wagon weathering, to scenics and Welsh hillsides, station and town construction, the roundhouse (potentially making the interior detailed and viewable somehow?) and operational signalling, plus the actual operating of course. There was plenty of different interest areas.

 

Rich

[mdvle]

42 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 I have looked previously at the thread you referenced, but not for a while, so will go have another read through! 

 

The 1950s is an interesting period, the introduction of the 16-ton mineral wagon removes the private owner aspect, as @DavidCBroad commented, but does open the door to some early diesels. Food for thought perhaps.

 

 

 

 

Wasn't necessarily suggesting a change in era (though obviously if it ends up working better for you great), just that the person responsible for that thread with his knowledge of the area you are interested in might be also able to offer insight into the era you currently are interested in.

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

Wasn't necessarily suggesting a change in era (though obviously if it ends up working better for you great), just that the person responsible for that thread with his knowledge of the area you are interested in might be also able to offer insight into the era you currently are interested in.

 

Yes no problem at all, appreciate the thought.  While period is obvious all down to the individual, when planning new things I often thing it does no harm for people to gently query the reasoning, or suggest an alternative - it helps to qualify in people's mind (mine in this case) what the actual reasons for choosing a particular period are.

 

In my case, there is something about the Big Four in the inter-war period, despite the fact I was born almost 50 years later!  The bigger locos were starting to come in - the 5600s appeared from mid to late 1920s for example, but many railways (the GWR especially) retained their optimism and individualism as one business that was out to make a profit and serve its customers.  People had a job for life, and as a result were generally proud of working for the railways. Stations were clean and painted, the line side was looked after - helped that salaries were low I suppose!  But I love the idea of a 'Great Western' branded 5700 pottering through with a rake of GW box and open vans, and some private owner wagons for coal, lime and other products, passing a 5600 heading in the opposite direction with loaded coal workings.

 

Talking of the pick-up goods, I wonder how many non-GW wagons (ie LMS, SR, LNER) actually got into the Valleys?  My gut reaction is that is was probably few - they would have to be delivering some form of product to a down or village.

 

Rich

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, mdvle said:

User here on RMweb, The Johnster, seems quite knowledgeable about the South Wales area (though in a later timeframe) so may be worth considering asking.  His layout thread is here

 

 

'Quite knowledgeable' is probably pushing it a bit, and you are being very kind to an old drunk, but I've picked up a few nuggets over the years.  My layout is loosely based on Abergwynfi, inspired by would be a better description, time frame 1948-58, and geographically located in Tondu's territory.  Tondu shed had an allocation of entirely tank locos, but tender locos certainly worked into the marshalling sidings from Severn Tunnel, Ebbw Jc, Canton, and probably Court Sart and Llanelly (1950s spelling) as well.  There was a triangle for turning and the shed was a roundhouse type, but I doubt it's turntable would have been capable of much more than a 43xx.  42xx were the largest locos allox to Tondu.

 

2 hours ago, MarshLane said:

the requirement for locos is Panniers and 5600s around Tondu, which keeps acquisitions in the sub £100 area .

These were certainly the staples at Tondu, but the shed had a bit more biodiversity than that.  During the 30s it had several 2721/1854 panniers, and 44xx for the sharply curved Porthcawl branch, as well as the aforementioned 42xx, necessary for the very steep gradients even with 30 or 40 empties on the Abergwynfi and Blaengarw workings.  In the South Wales Valleys, the coal workings had to pull hard down the hill with the loaded as well as up hill with the empties, as wagon brakes were pinned down in order to control the heavy trains on the downhill gradients.  This was a black art as too many brakes pinned down too hard would stall the loco, and too few pinned down too lightly would result in a runaway, as the piles of broken wagonry at the ends of the sand drags at the bottom testified.  The guard, sometimes assisted by shunters or brakesmen, pinned down brakes with the train moving slowly  until the driver thought he had enough to pull the train under steam but avoid stalling.  With varying rail conditions and condition of the brakes on both wagons and loco, what could possibly go wrong!

 

39 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 People had a job for life, and as a result were generally proud of working for the railways. Stations were clean and painted, the line side was looked after - helped that salaries were low I suppose!

49 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hmm. Yes, but the 1930s depression hit the Valleys particularly hard, and it was hard to keep stations clean if the pit was open and working, spreading dust everywhere.  Very few had bathhouses and the men went home dirty to bathe in front of the fire, spreading the muck and dust as they went.

 

  You can go for halcyon days in South Devon, though there was much hardship for farm labourers, but the Central Glamorgan valleys, never 'Homes and Gardens' country, were very woebegone in the 30s, as were their inhabitants.  Malnutrition and TB claimed many more lives than they should have; it is no coincidence that Aneurin Bevan came from a similar area.  

 

Borrow 'The Citadel' by A J Cronin from your local library.  He has a Socialist agenda (not necessarily a bad thing in my view), but this book will give you a very good impression of just how bleak life was in the area at that period, and explain why those working on the railways, or anywhere for that matter, were very happy about it!

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, MarshLane said:

 

Talking of the pick-up goods, I wonder how many non-GW wagons (ie LMS, SR, LNER) actually got into the Valleys?  My gut reaction is that is was probably few - they would have to be delivering some form of product to a down or village.

General merchandise wagons were pooled at the time and a good number would find their way into the Valleys on pick-ups.  The general trend would be loaded in empty out, but most villages had other industries besides coal; foundries and engineering workshops were common and might have a private siding.  A foundry needs casting sand in medium opens.  And some general merchandise traffic found it's way to the collieries occasionally as well.  Don't forget the pit props, either!

 

Cwmdimbath features a sawmill and a foundry further down the branch (further down the branch being my euphemism for 'not actually modelled; but the traffic appears at Cwmdimbath on the pick-up), as well as what I consider post war industries on a small trading estate with it's own siding based around a Remploy factory.  Cronin would have approved of Remploy, set up to provide suitable employment for wounded war veterans with disabilities, and a common feature in the Valleys.  The newly formed NCB promised pithead baths, and these are under construction at my pit, necessitating vans of cement, more sand, gravel, pipes, bricks and all sorts.

 

There was also, from 1938, a big ROF factory at Tremains just upline from Bridgend, which attracted a good bit of workmen's traffic.  Workmen's trains for the collieries, using Dean 4 wheeled stock in the 30s (in fact the last such coaches were used on the Glyncorrwg miners train in 1953), were common as well.  Sheep got everywhere, especially in winter when the mountain life got a bit rough(!), or in summer when the grass got too dry.

 

In all, a fascinating world now mostly long gone.

Edited February 1, 2020 by The Johnster

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

'Quite knowledgeable' is probably pushing it a bit, and you are being very kind to an old drunk, but I've picked up a few nuggets over the years.  My layout is loosely based on Abergwynfi, inspired by would be a better description, time frame 1948-58, and geographically located in Tondu's territory.  Tondu shed had an allocation of entirely tank locos, but tender locos certainly worked into the marshalling sidings from Severn Tunnel, Ebbw Jc, Canton, and probably Court Sart and Llanelly (1950s spelling) as well.  There was a triangle for turning and the shed was a roundhouse type, but I doubt it's turntable would have been capable of much more than a 43xx.  42xx were the largest locos allox to Tondu.

 

These were certainly the staples at Tondu, but the shed had a bit more biodiversity than that.  During the 30s it had several 2721/1854 panniers, and 44xx for the sharply curved Porthcawl branch, as well as the aforementioned 42xx, necessary for the very steep gradients even with 30 or 40 empties on the Abergwynfi and Blaengarw workings.  In the South Wales Valleys, the coal workings had to pull hard down the hill with the loaded as well as up hill with the empties, as wagon brakes were pinned down in order to control the heavy trains on the downhill gradients.  This was a black art as too many brakes pinned down too hard would stall the loco, and too few pinned down too lightly would result in a runaway, as the piles of broken wagonry at the ends of the sand drags at the bottom testified.  The guard, sometimes assisted by shunters or brakesmen, pinned down brakes with the train moving slowly  until the driver thought he had enough to pull the train under steam but avoid stalling.  With varying rail conditions and condition of the brakes on both wagons and loco, what could possibly go wrong!

 

Hmm. Yes, but the 1930s depression hit the Valleys particularly hard, and it was hard to keep stations clean if the pit was open and working, spreading dust everywhere.  Very few had bathhouses and the men went home dirty to bathe in front of the fire, spreading the muck and dust as they went.

 

  You can go for halcyon days in South Devon, though there was much hardship for farm labourers, but the Central Glamorgan valleys, never 'Homes and Gardens' country, were very woebegone in the 30s, as were their inhabitants.  Malnutrition and TB claimed many more lives than they should have; it is no coincidence that Aneurin Bevan came from a similar area.  

 

Borrow 'The Citadel' by A J Cronin from your local library.  He has a Socialist agenda (not necessarily a bad thing in my view), but this book will give you a very good impression of just how bleak life was in the area at that period, and explain why those working on the railways, or anywhere for that matter, were very happy about it!

 

Thanks for that - I'll search out the book you mentioned, as I do like to understand the area and ways of life in the past.  Interesting that tender locos reached Tondu, presumably 4300 and the odd 2800s? I presume Halls or Granges etc would not have made it into the Valleys on freight workings from Canton or Ebbw Jn?  A 4200 or two is defiantly on the agenda, but I need to search out who does a kit (if anyone) for that design.  I may need to work to a rule #1 on train lengths, limiting them to 20-26 wagons on space grounds, but as you say, pinning of breaks was very much a black art.  With no disrespect to anyone, I do wonder how today's drivers would have taken to unfitted freights!  It is a far easier computer controlled life today, both in accelerating and braking.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

General merchandise wagons were pooled at the time and a good number would find their way into the Valleys on pick-ups.  The general trend would be loaded in empty out, but most villages had other industries besides coal; foundries and engineering workshops were common and might have a private siding.  A foundry needs casting sand in medium opens.  And some general merchandise traffic found it's way to the collieries occasionally as well.  Don't forget the pit props, either!

 

Cwmdimbath features a sawmill and a foundry further down the branch (further down the branch being my euphemism for 'not actually modelled; but the traffic appears at Cwmdimbath on the pick-up), as well as what I consider post war industries on a small trading estate with it's own siding based around a Remploy factory.  Cronin would have approved of Remploy, set up to provide suitable employment for wounded war veterans with disabilities, and a common feature in the Valleys.  The newly formed NCB promised pithead baths, and these are under construction at my pit, necessitating vans of cement, more sand, gravel, pipes, bricks and all sorts.

 

There was also, from 1938, a big ROF factory at Tremains just upline from Bridgend, which attracted a good bit of workmen's traffic.  Workmen's trains for the collieries, using Dean 4 wheeled stock in the 30s (in fact the last such coaches were used on the Glyncorrwg miners train in 1953), were common as well.  Sheep got everywhere, especially in winter when the mountain life got a bit rough(!), or in summer when the grass got too dry.

 

In all, a fascinating world now mostly long gone.

 

Thanks for that - I hadn't realised that the General Merchandise wagons were pooled, that opens up the variety a bit.  I do need to search out what the options for GWR inter-war coaches on the branches are in N gauge.  I know Dapol do some Collett designs, a B set and auto coach, but I presume there must be other options on the market too, although it may be a case of resembling the stock of the period rather than being accurate I suppose.

 

Did any of the 1400 Class get into the valleys on Autocoaches, or because of the grades were they all 6400s?  I appreciate none were based locally. I have had a dig through the Shedbash blog which has some interesting entries for Tondu.

 

Does anyone have a local timetable for this area at all?  I appreciate a lot of the coal workings wouldn't have appeared, as they would have been locally arranged 'run as required' workings, but an idea of what trains did work in from yards on the main line or even further afield would be useful.  I have been keeping my eyes open on eBay, but haven't come across anything yet.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, MarshLane said:

presumably 4300 and the odd 2800s? I presume Halls or Granges etc would not have made it into the Valleys on freight workings from Canton or Ebbw Jn?

The tender locos would have worked as far as Tondu sorting sidings and come off for their return workings there, probably taking water during the turning movements, and not penetrated further into the Valleys, more as a consequence of their crews' route knowledge than any other consideration.  43xx certainly, and 28xx, but you've a good case for Dean Goods, 2251, ROD 30xx, and 26xx 'Aberdares' and might not be pushing too hard at the boundaries of Rule 1 with a Grange or Hall; don't be fooled by the nameplates, these were mixed traffic locos at home on freight work.  You might justify some ex TVR or Rhymney locos on the same basis; Barry had work to Tondu and a good number of Taff A's even in early BR days.

 

2 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 I do need to search out what the options for GWR inter-war coaches on the branches are in N gauge.  I know Dapol do some Collett designs, a B set and auto coach, but I presume there must be

Now you start hitting sourcing problems in 00, never mind N.  The auto trailer is fine, but is I believe a scaled down version of Airfix's 4mm model and reproduces that model's odd mixture of A28 and A30 features.  Earlier types of trailer would be appreciated in both scales, and a diagram N would fit the bill nicely if Dapol are reading this and want to scale down their 0 gauge model.  The B set is not correct for any type of B set that ran in the Tondu valleys; it is diagram E129 and you want E147, different bogies and flat ended, and with different proportions to the window reveals.  E129s ran in South Wales (there was, I know, a set allox. to the Porth-Maerdy branch).

 

There was a daily Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter train which in later years provided employment for a Collett 31xx large prairie (no.4 boiler and 5'3" wheels; only 5 were built, introduced 1938 so you may be interested.  Tondu had 3100 and Canton 3105 for this work, as the trains were all stops on the SWML Pyle-Cardiff and the ability to get away from platforms quickly to keep out of the way of the other traffic was appreciated.  Stock for this was gangwayed and rather old.

2 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Did any of the 1400 Class get into the valleys on Autocoaches, or because of the grades were they all 6400s?  I appreciate none were based locally. I have had a dig through the Shedbash blog which has some interesting entries for Tondu.

There were none at Tondu in my period, but you didn't have to go far to find a couple; Llantrisant had 2, 1421 and 1471, 4821 and 71 in your period of course, for the Penygraig and Cowbridge branches.  I doubt you could have found two branches from the same junction more different in character anywhere; Penygraig was the epitome of Valleys bleak, while Cowbridge's rural idyll would have looked more at home in deepest darkest Devon.  Llantrisant also had auto-fitted Metros and 517s, and it is possible that Tondu did as well pre-war, but I cannot confirm this to be fact.  The 4575s did not arrive until 1953, and there were AFAIK (but I'm happy to be corrected) no 64xx at Tondu until 1958.

 

You've an excuse for Saints, Stars, and Castles as well.  Tondu was part of an authorised diversion route if the SWML were closed for Sunday occupation or any sort of 'incident' between Pyle and Llanharan or Pyle and Bridgend, and loadings and timings for such locos were provided in an appendix to the Sectional Appendix.  Route restrictions were not a feature of Valleys work in general as 'red' locos were allowed everywhere and anywhere, though there were speed restrictions on some large locos due to width over cylinder covers.

 

Diversions are also an excuse for main line type block oil or steel trains, parcels, the Whitland Milk, Milford Haven-Bristol TPO, Irish cattle specials from Fishguard; in fact the whole panoply of main line work. and if somebody'd told me I'd be using the word 'panoply' today, I'd have stayed in bed...

Edited February 1, 2020 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, MarshLane said:

I hadn't realised that the General Merchandise wagons were pooled, that opens up the variety a bit

The great majority of general merchandise wagons and vans were indeed pooled, from 1927 under the auspices of the RCH I believe, and anything got anywhere.  But any specialist vehicles were usually branded in some way; 'non pool' 'return to xxxx' etc.  This would include such as fruit or banana vans, cattle wagons, shock absorbing 5-plank and vans.  Anything vacuum braked was also non-pool.  Conflats were pooled if they were not vacuum braked, as the RCH had overseen a series of standardised containers, including some PO (Pickford's comes to mind).  This does not mean that a 'foreign' fitted or specialist vehicle cannot appear, just that it must be sent back to it's owner asap and not be kept waiting for a return load or loaded forward anywhere except it's home railway.  Brake vans stayed with their owners to the same extent as locos, so for Tondu we are talking GW toads only.

 

Private owner minerals were also pooled at the same time, so the days of block trains of 'Cambrian' or 'Cory' coal wagons were over, as were those of small coal merchants looking after their brightly liveried wagons.  The trains would be of mixed PO wagons, but all very dirty.  By nationalisation, and for the near on 2 decades XPOs were still in service, it was to all intents and purposes impossible to decipher liveries.  Any tank wagons were privately owned of course, if you can find an excuse for one (easier in the 50s, my trading estate has communal oil fired heating with a weekly delivery).  Milk tanks are thinner on the ground, most deliveries even then being by road transport from local depots.  The agriculture of the area is massively predominantly hill sheep farming, the animals being bred for wool rather than the table, but the immediate Tondu area had, and still has, some mixed farming.  An occasional cattle wagon or a 1 planker loaded with farm machinery can be indulged in!

[MarshLane]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

'Quite knowledgeable' is probably pushing it a bit, and you are being very kind to an old drunk, but I've picked up a few nuggets over the years.  

 

Given your very kind responses to this thread, I think your underselling yourself there

 

 

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The tender locos would have worked as far as Tondu sorting sidings and come off for their return workings there, probably taking water during the turning movements, and not penetrated further into the Valleys, more as a consequence of their crews' route knowledge than any other consideration.  43xx certainly, and 28xx, but you've a good case for Dean Goods, 2251, ROD 30xx, and 26xx 'Aberdares' and might not be pushing too hard at the boundaries of Rule 1 with a Grange or Hall; don't be fooled by the nameplates, these were mixed traffic locos at home on freight work.  You might justify some ex TVR or Rhymney locos on the same basis; Barry had work to Tondu and a good number of Taff A's even in early BR days.

 

Thanks for the detailed response - I must admit I am at a bit of a loss of where to look for this information.  I have got a range of books, but nothing that dates from the 1930s or has this kind of info.  A 4300 and 2800 (do like those locos!) will be must haves! The others may end up having to be kit or (worse still) scratch builds.  That starts raising other questions with me over (but I'll gloss over those for now).  I suspect a 'Grange' or 'Hall' may appear to add the occasional bit of interest - your earlier comment about the turntable size is acknowledged.  I am not up on Barry and Taff Vale locos, so need to go research those references.

 

 

27 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Now you start hitting sourcing problems in 00, never mind N.  The auto trailer is fine, but is I believe a scaled down version of Airfix's 4mm model and reproduces that model's odd mixture of A28 and A30 features.  Earlier types of trailer would be appreciated in both scales, and a diagram N would fit the bill nicely if Dapol are reading this and want to scale down their 0 gauge model.  The B set is not correct for any type of B set that ran in the Tondu valleys; it is diagram E129 and you want E147, different bogies and flat ended, and with different proportions to the window reveals.  E129s ran in South Wales (there was, I know, a set allox. to the Porth-Maerdy branch).

 

Yes, I thought that might be a problem.  I suspect part of this will be a case of get the layout up and running, and start on the scenery, then some work in brass or 3D modelling is going to be required for some of the stock.  A Dapol B Set acquisition may need to be a temporary measure on that basis.

 

29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There was a daily Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter train which in later years provided employment for a Collett 31xx large prairie (no.4 boiler and 5'3" wheels; only 5 were built, introduced 1938 so you may be interested.  Tondu had 3100 and Canton 3105 for this work....

 

.... The 4575s did not arrive until 1953, and there were AFAIK (but I'm happy to be corrected) no 64xx at Tondu until 1958.

 

You've an excuse for Saints, Stars, and Castles as well.  Tondu was part of an authorised diversion route if the SWML were closed for Sunday occupation or any sort of 'incident' between Pyle and Llanharan or Pyle and Bridgend, and loadings and timings for such locos were provided in an appendix to the Sectional Appendix.  Route restrictions were not a feature of Valleys work in general as 'red' locos were allowed everywhere and anywhere, though there were speed restrictions on some large locos due to width over cylinder covers.

 

Hmm, again the 3100s could possibly be a topic for the future on a scratch building basis if there is no kit available.  I wonder how difficult it would be to modify a prairie body shell?  Something else to research at some point.

 

I haven't quite worked out the diversionary route, was it based on traffic reaching Tondu from Bridgend and then either running round or changing locos for a reversal then down to what is now the Margam line?  That could make for a very interesting alternative timetable.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

There was a branch from Llanharan which ran via Bryncethin to join the Ogmore Valley line with a triangular junction at Brynmenyn; there were no passenger stations on it.  You are correct that a diversion via Bridgend would have required a reversal at Tondu.  Tondu could be a very busy place indeed if such a diversion were being operated on a weekday; Sundays weren't so bad as there were no passenger services on any of the branches and the pits did not wind on Sundays.

[MarshLane]

Just browsing the ShedBash blog

 

They shows one 45xx - No. 5533 - on shed on 31st July 1938, with two allocated as of January 1948.  Interestingly they also show 11 27xx, 12 57xx, and two 1701 Panniers on shed on that day, along with 4404 and 4408 (both 44xx) five 42xx and a Bulldog - 3406 Calcutta... now the latter would be a very nice loco to include in the mix! Presumably that would have arrived on a general freight from Cardiff, Ebbw Jn or Severn Tunnel Jn.

 

Its also quite interesting (well to me anyway) that 11 years later on 4th September 1949, there were 21 57xx Panniers on shed (all home based, no visitors), a 27xx, a 72xx, two 5600s, the same two 44xx, a 31xx (3100) and two 45xxs, again all home locos.  There were six 4200s, three being Tondu based, one Cardiff Canton, one Duffryn  Yard and one Severn Tunnel Junction.

 

Ok it was a Sunday, when you would have expected locos to work back to their Home Depot I suppose, but fascinating that out of 36 - only 3 were visitors.

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

Well thanks to @The Johnster - I think the whole aspect of the potential for a busy layout seems to have been laid out!  With potentially a far greater range of traction than I first thought.  I say potentially because of lot isn't available in 2mm scale of course.  But I have just discovered that Worsley Works do a scratch build aid kit for a 4200 2-8-0T and 7200 2-8-2T  An email is to them is probably needed to establish what is actually included.  The website states "Body and Chassis etching only. No Castings" so I presume its the detail work that missing and needs scratch building or acquiring from other sources. I'll report back when I know more on that.

 

Can I just say thanks to everyone so far who has contributed, it really has helped and filled in a few of the gaps. Please keep the thoughts and comments coming - it all helps.  Next move really is to get the layout planned out electronically - thats going to take some time and I need to make a decision between using Templot (2FS) or SCARM (N).  The whole idea of this layout was to build it in N to get something up and running quickly so I could get some enjoyment out of it along the way.  But given the information above about some of the loco types that are going to have to be kit built, I am now questioning that if I am kit building locos, why not just kit build them in finescale. 

 

I am getting to grips with finescale trackwork slowly anyway, which I was always going to continue on a far smaller scale, but based around the 1970s to save having to start building chassis. I think I'd enjoy that work, but I get far more enjoyment from running a layout, so don't want to have to spend ages on chassis construction just to be able to run something.  On the other hand, it seems a waste if I am going to have to build chassis to build them in N. Toad brake van in several different versions are available as kits from the 2mm shops, as are several GWR wagons including a Mink A, Mink C and shunters truck.  Again that pushes me towards the viewpoint that if several of the vehicles are not going to be simple 'wheel change' options, then it makes sense to go 2FS from the start.

 

Decisions, decisions, decisions.  Some thinking time Is needed I think.

Edited February 1, 2020 by MarshLane

[mdvle]

23 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Well thanks to @The Johnster - I think the whole aspect of the potential for a busy layout seems to have been laid out!  With potentially a far greater range of traction than I first thought.  I say potentially because of lot isn't available in 2mm scale of course.  But I have just discovered that Worsley Works do a scratch build aid kit for a 4200 2-8-0T and 7200 2-8-2T  An email is to them is probably needed to establish what is actually included.  The website states "Body and Chassis etching only. No Castings" so I presume its the detail work that missing and needs scratch building or acquiring from other sources. I'll report back when I know more on that.

 

If you approach this as a 5, 10, 15, 20, or whatever year project then there is always the possibility that some of these things do become available RTR in the future - of course, the way things will work is as you finish a kit or scratchbuild that is what will be announced as the next RTR release.  At least others will be thankful for your sacrifice.

 

23 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Can I just say thanks to everyone so far who has contributed, it really has helped and filled in a few of the gaps. Please keep the thoughts and comments coming - it all helps.  Next move really is to get the layout planned out electronically - thats going to take some time and I need to make a decision between using Templot (2FS) or SCARM (N).  The whole idea of this layout was to build it in N to get something up and running quickly so I could get some enjoyment out of it along the way.  But given the information above about some of the loco types that are going to have to be kit built, I am now questioning that if I am kit building locos, why not just kit build them in finescale.

 

Perhaps a small shunting plank, where you can run some RTR N stuff on the side while you work on building your main layout and equipment in finescale.  Then, in X years when you get enough of the layout built you can convert the RTR stuff to finescale and start adding it to the layout as well.

 

This gives you some enjoyment immediately, while still working to your ultimate goal.

[The Johnster]

19 hours ago, MarshLane said:

a 27xx, a 72xx, two 5600s, the same two 44xx,

2761; I have worked an old Triang Hornby up into a representation of it.  In '49 there should have been an 1854, 1730, as well.  4404 and 8 were withdrawn from the shed 1958 I think.  Some locos spent their entire lives there; 4218 seems to have and so did 8448, but the latter only lasted from '53 to '59.  There are one or two oddities, such as 6762 which was allox new in '48.  What was the requirement for a steam reverse loco with no vacuum brakes and a jointed coupling rod, and why was it not replaced when it was xfer Swansea Upper Bank in '56.  

 

Another good source of info is BR Database, and while data for your period is sketchy, you can get a good feel for the comings and goings of the place.

[Harlequin]

In my role as Devil's Advocate:

 

Can you find a way to fit all or a useful part of Tondu into your 21ft by 7ft available space?

Tondu is triangular whereas your space is linear.

If it can be linearised somehow, it's quite a complex station with a lot going on, a wide range of traffic and specialised local motive power that is hard to model.

 

Would it be worth looking at somewhere in the same area but quieter with a simpler, more linear track plan?

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Harlequin

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

2761; I have worked an old Triang Hornby up into a representation of it.  In '49 there should have been an 1854, 1730, as well.  4404 and 8 were withdrawn from the shed 1958 I think.  Some locos spent their entire lives there; 4218 seems to have and so did 8448, but the latter only lasted from '53 to '59.  There are one or two oddities, such as 6762 which was allox new in '48.  What was the requirement for a steam reverse loco with no vacuum brakes and a jointed coupling rod, and why was it not replaced when it was xfer Swansea Upper Bank in '56.  

 

Another good source of info is BR Database, and while data for your period is sketchy, you can get a good feel for the comings and goings of the place.

 

1730 does seem conspicuous by its absence in the 1949 listings, although there is a note of it being at Pontypool Road during a 'shedbash' in 1946.  

[DCB]

Last 44XX was withdrawn from Plymouth Laira circa 1955, just before the Princetown Branch closed..

Some folks are mixing up pooling, circa 1927, of Railway Company wagons and the government control of PO wagons circa 1939/40.

Pooling Railway owned wagons made little difference except other company wagons would be sent off again not necessarily where they came from, reducing empty wagon movements.

Government control of PO wagons added a ton to the max load from 12 to 13 tons, and led to wagons going to facilities other than their usual routes. Many were leased and painted inn customer colours, and there were agents who made sure they didn't get lost.   Pre war you could see long trains of "Parkend" wagons taking domestic house coal between "Parkend" Colliery in the FOD and their customers, being broken down into shorter rakes as the distance from home increased,  The FOD was the house coal end of South Wales Coalfield, the West was Ship fuel, steam coal, petty useless for houses or locomotives, and the wagons would wander from colliery to port several times most years.  WW1 killed the export trade and they had to drag coal 500 miles to Scotland for the Grand Fleet instead of 20 miles to Swansea docks for export.

So from about 1920 the Valleys were in decline, The Coal strike really slaughtered the remaining export trade.  The traffic never really recovered and more powerful locos led to more fewer longer trains, and some rationalisation of facilities, The traffic started to come back from the late 1930s as we all geared up for the next "Match" Vs the Germans planned for 1942.

This does mean a good 1938 era with lots of PO wagon and shunting, a long grey era until the 1960s and then new shiny class 37 locos taking duties from class 56XX and 42XX as the lines and collieries closed.

Have you ever thought of modelling Devon.

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

In my role as Devil's Advocate:

 

Can you find a way to fit all or a useful part of Tondu into your 21ft by 7ft available space?

Tondu is triangular whereas your space is linear.

If it can be linearised somehow, it's quite a complex station with a lot going on, a wide range of traffic and specialised local motive power that is hard to model.

 

Would it be worth looking at somewhere in the same area but quieter with a simpler, more linear track plan?

 

How about Ogmore Vale?  Colliery exchange sidings across from the platform, a nice little kickback off the run around loop into the goods yard via a diamond crossing, and a good mix of Valleys bleak and desolate scenery with terraced houses hanging off mountains.  And a colliery Sentinel, though I'm not sure how far back that goes...

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

In my role as Devil's Advocate:

 

Can you find a way to fit all or a useful part of Tondu into your 21ft by 7ft available space?

Tondu is triangular whereas your space is linear.

If it can be linearised somehow, it's quite a complex station with a lot going on, a wide range of traffic and specialised local motive power that is hard to model.

 

Would it be worth looking at somewhere in the same area but quieter with a simpler, more linear track plan?

 

 

A devil's advocate is always a useful resource  I think its doable in N or 2FS.  I have had a quick run-round with a tape measure and worked out that by having a central operating area, and making both ends of each 'Y' (ie the line from North Box and Ogmore Junction, along with the lines from South Box and Velin Vach circle over themselves it does seem to fit.  I am going to sit down and do a very rough sketch in Templot hopefully later tonight and just check that it could fit.  If not then it may need to be adapted or, as you've suggested, look at somewhere quiter in the same area. 

 

The one appeal of Tondu was that the track layout meant that depending on one's mood, it would not necessarily need the entire layout put up, and follows the small layout/diorama style of @Mikkel in creating small scenes - the station, the goods yard, the shunting sidings, the roundhouse etc.  Although no doubt there are other locations that could give similar opportunities.

[The Johnster]

2 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Last 44XX was withdrawn from Plymouth Laira circa 1955, just before the Princetown Branch closed..

Some folks are mixing up pooling, circa 1927, of Railway Company wagons and the government control of PO wagons circa 1939/40.

Pooling Railway owned wagons made little difference except other company wagons would be sent off again not necessarily where they came from, reducing empty wagon movements.

Government control of PO wagons added a ton to the max load from 12 to 13 tons, and led to wagons going to facilities other than their usual routes. Many were leased and painted inn customer colours, and there were agents who made sure they didn't get lost.   Pre war you could see long trains of "Parkend" wagons taking domestic house coal between "Parkend" Colliery in the FOD and their customers, being broken down into shorter rakes as the distance from home increased,  The FOD was the house coal end of South Wales Coalfield, the West was Ship fuel, steam coal, petty useless for houses or locomotives, and the wagons would wander from colliery to port several times most years.  WW1 killed the export trade and they had to drag coal 500 miles to Scotland for the Grand Fleet instead of 20 miles to Swansea docks for export.

So from about 1920 the Valleys were in decline, The Coal strike really slaughtered the remaining export trade.  The traffic never really recovered and more powerful locos led to more fewer longer trains, and some rationalisation of facilities, The traffic started to come back from the late 1930s as we all geared up for the next "Match" Vs the Germans planned for 1942.

This does mean a good 1938 era with lots of PO wagon and shunting, a long grey era until the 1960s and then new shiny class 37 locos taking duties from class 56XX and 42XX as the lines and collieries closed.

Have you ever thought of modelling Devon.

 

So from about 1920 the Valleys were in decline, no argument, but it wasn't as bleak a picture as you paint from the railway traffic point of view.  The export ship was holed below the waterline by the general strike in 1926, but it took nearly 40 years to sink below the waves completely at Cardiff, a little longer at Barry, and a lot longer at Swansea.  Cardiff exported a record 14 million tons in 1912, and still managed 4 million in 1960!  The domestic market went to oil increasingly after WW2 and the decline was long and continuous until the next big strike effectively mercy-killed deep coal mining in the area in the 80s.  But during my childhood, visits to Cardiff Docks would have 4 or 5 ocean going ships and several coasters loading coal, and 20 years later it was still possible to see loaded coal trains backed up to Walnut Tree awaiting entry to Radyr yard every evening from about 4 until 7 o'clock, and very little of Radyr had been lifted or taken out of use then bar the shed, so you'd have to say the place was being fully utilised.  

 

The coking coal industry for steel works use expanded until about 1965, as did steel production with a new works at Margam and new strip mills at Trostre, Velindre, Ebbw Vale, and Cwmfelinfach.  Tondu had plenty of work until it closed in 1964, being effectively replaced by Margam along with Dyffryn Yard. New coal fired power stations, especially Aberthaw A, ensured that the 42xx were kept at it till the end.  There was still a passenger service from Bridgend to Treherbert in 1969, despite the abandonment of Glynrhondda Tunnel, with a bus over the Bwlch from Cwmmer Afan doing the honours between Cwmmer and Treherbert.  Coal trains ran in the Tondu valleys, to Caerau in the Llynfi, Blaengarw, and Ogmore Vale, into the very late BR era, to and from Margam.

 

So there was plenty going on, and it was in fact in some respects as well that the trade began to decline when it did.  The post WW1 years and grouping saw major investment in infrastructure to handle the traffic at the docks, which was still heavy enough to cause major congestion. and the GW must have thought it had been handed the goose that laid the golden eggs when it absorbed the traffic from the Rhymney, Taff Vale, and Barry; in the event it was to get little in the way of the expected golden eggs despite refurbishing dock equipment and handling facilities (it owned the South Wales ports post grouping as well).  It made profits out of the export trade for the rest of it's existence though, as well as the domestic, and so did WR for very many years.  

 

Pits rationalised, smaller ones closing as they were connected by underground galleries to larger, more profitable, neighbours, and as late as the early 50s new ones were being sunk in order to recover reserves more economically.  Tondu was involved with traffic to one of these, North Rhondda (named for the seam, not the valley) at Glyncorrwg.  This eventually connected underground to Hirwaun, but not until the 70s.  Huge investments were undertaken at Hafodyrynys, Nantgarw, North Rhondda as mentioned, amongst others, all returning value on their outlay before succumbing to the political/economic/social/geological perfect storm of the 80s.  Everybody in the Valleys blames the Iron Lady, not without justification, but the writing was on the wall anyway and the final conflict only made it more brutal than it had to be and brought the mercy killing forward a few years.  The pain is still palpable.