Unidentified industrial loco

[Ruston]

35 minutes ago, DOCJACOB said:

Industrial Locomotives of Scotland Handbook mentions, briefly, only one possible candidate locomotive 

 

No 3 0-4-0 with inside cylinders built 1840 and scrapped circa 1890 the interest bit was stated to be ex NBR 

 

Since NBR inception was in 1846 this just adds to mystery. Fair to say early NBR investigations can be “interesting” though. 

 

Nothing leaps out in SLS book on early NBR locomotives. 

I have that book too. How do they know it was built in 1840, without even knowing the builder?  We're assuming this is Locghgelly No.3 from a comment on the picture on Flickr and that it is ex-NBR from what that comment and the IRS book. As you say, the NBR didn't even exist in 1840 so it couldn't have been new to them it it was built in 1840 but the features are from something maybe 10 years older in any case.

 

All the visual evidence that I have mentioned earlier says that it's an E.B. Wilson-built engine from the 1850s, so unless anyone can come up with something else with the same features (boiler mount, chimney, outside suspension rods, and the less reliable evidence of the weatherboard) then I'm going to say that's who the original builder was.

 

So... did the NBR own any engines built by E.B. Wilson? Does the SLS book mention any NBR engines built by them? If not then it could still be a Wilson but from the NER. Unless we know exactly why the IRS say it came from the NBR it could be NER. It's an easy mistake to make if it's from some old handwritten note and, as shown, the NER did have some E.B. Wilson engines with the same features.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Ruston

[Ruston]

I've had a look at the E.B. Wilson works list and as far as I can see  only one engine was built for the NBR and that was a 2-2-2-0 Crampton, which is absolutely nothing like the mystery engine. The lists of engines from companies absorbed by the NBR (in a link previously posted by Osgood) don't show any Wilsons.

 

So this engine probably didn't come from the NBR.

 

The Wilson works list doesn't show any 0-4-0s that could fit though but then it isn't a complete list.

 

Another feature of this mystery loco that also points to it being a Wilson is the spring hangers. This is something I have been told in conversation about it.

 

But... I think there's also a possibility that it's not as old as it looks and it could even be built by Manning Wardle. MW built a pair of outside-framed 0-6-0STs for the NER in 1864 and although they were far larger than this it shows that they were building things that looked much older and that were very different from their standard locomotives.

 

There is also another locomotive that adds to my assertion that our loco is a Wilson (or a Manning Wardle) but itself is a bit of a mystery. More on that later when I find the photo but  in the meantime, if anyone has a photo of a large saddletank named Keekle, or knows anything about it, feel free to post...

[Regularity]

12 minutes ago, Ruston said:

if anyone has a photo of a large saddletank named Keekle, or knows anything about it, feel free to post...

This one?

[MarcD]

It ended up as a Furness loco I will have a good look in my collection tomorrow and see what I can find out.

Marc

[Ruston]

10 hours ago, Furness Wagon said:

It ended up as a Furness loco I will have a good look in my collection tomorrow and see what I can find out.

Marc

Thanks.

 

The reason I wanted a photo of this is because it has features similar to the mystery loco - frames, suspension rods, spring hangers (on the centre axle but the front ones are fifferent) and chimney. But the thing itself is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

The ILS list of industrial loco names shows only one engine named Keekle, so this has to be it.

 

The loco in Simon's photo is the same loco that I have a picture of but mine shows it actually named Keekle and it has no cab.

 

Both Fred Harman's Locomotives built by Manning Wardle & Co Vol.2, and F.W. Mabbott's Manning Wardle & Company both have Keekle down as Manning Wardle works number 684, built in 1878, to R. Ward & Co. contractor for the Cleator & Workinton Railway. Then to Eskett Limestone quarries Ltd. Winder, Frizington, scrapped 1938. But the mystery to me is that both books list this engine as a Class K 0-6-0ST 12"x17" cylinders and 3' 1 3/8" wheels.

 

It is clearly NOT a Class K - it's outside-framed for a start and those frames look to be at least 20 years older in design. It's a far larger engine and would dwarf a Class K. The wheels are definitely of a greater diameter. I think it's a rebuild of an E.B. Wilson loco once again.

[RLWP]

 

 

There are some strong familial resemblances in the chassis of those two<snip>

 

Richard

Edited July 5, 2019 by RLWP
Edited to take out an unsupported assumption

[MarcD]

There were more than one of these locos so I have attached a few more views. They were build for the Whitehaven, Cleator  and Egremont Railway which was taken over jointly by the Furness and the LNWR in 1870. there is some debate on who was the builder it could have been Fletcher Jennings or Robert Stephenson & Co. 

Hope this is of Help

 

Marc 

[Ruston]

Thanks, Marc. That's not Keekle though. The one in the photo posted by Simon looks like Keekle later in its life than in the photo, below, which I assume is when it was new (or at least new as Keekle, if it is a rebuild of something earlier).

 

The frames look very Wilson-like. It's got the fancy spring hangers on the centre axle and the strips (that I originally thought were rods) on the outside of the frame from the spring to the axlebox.  But this site -  http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/furness.htm - shows Furness Railway loco 100, a Class G2 0-6-0ST, as being built for the Whitehaven, Cleator & Egremont Raiway by Fletcher Jennings in 1858, works number 21.

 

Did Fletcher Jennings rip off E.B. Wilson's design of frames, or did they rebuild a Wilson engine and sell it to the WC&E? If they did rip off Wilson's design then perhaps the original mystery loco is also a Fletcher Jennings?

 

Manning Wardle 684 is mentioned in the website above and it's clear now that it is a completely different loco that actually was a Class K but had the same name. I guess it's the only Keekle in the ILS names list because it is the only industrial with that name and this Keekle isn't an industrial engine at all but is in fact a main line railway company engine.

 

[BackRoomBoffin]

This could be a red herring, but the struts connecting the boiler to the frame forcibly remind me of 'Lion' ... made by that other early Leeds manufacturer, Todd, Kitson & Laird.

 

You probably know already (I had to look it up) that Todd, K & L basically split into 1) Shepherd and Todd and 2) Kitson and Laird.

 

Shepherd and Todd were eventually taken over by Wilsons, and Kitsons became Kitsons.

 

Are you sure (assuming its a tender engine as built) it doesn't predate Wilsons existing as a company (or it could be a very early Kitson)?

 

 

[Yarravalleymodeller]

R and W Hawthorn of Leith built several 0-4-0 tender engines for lines in Fife and the surrounding area that were later absorbed into the NBR.

 

Other examples of locos built by them have the same features in regards to the how the boiler is attached to the frames and unusually fancy spring hangers are not uncommon in their products. The number of small 0-4-0 tender locos put out by this manufacturer that were in service in Fife and taken over by the NBR says to me that there is every chance it could be a modification of one their products if the NBR connection is true. If I were the owner of an industrial operation in Fife at the time and had a choice between carting a loco all the way from Leeds or elsewhere vs buying a second hand one from the NBR and making it what I needed I'd opt for the latter. 

 

Drawing here seems to show a fair bit of similarity, again the boiler brackets, the frames. Even the shape of the of what I guess are horn guides is similar(W irons on a wagon but unsure of the nomenclature for an outside framed loco).

 

Should also note that the lochgelly iron and coal ltd didn't come into existence until 1871 and thus are probably not the people who purchased it from the NBR. The fact it's labelled as number 3 might denote that it is the eldest loco on site. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Yarravalleymodeller
More info

[Yarravalleymodeller]

 https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1867EnV23-p316.jpg

 

Identical design of string hangers, also the rod taking the load from axle box to spring is again on the outside of the frames.

 

No expert by a long shot but it's more convincing to me than any other suggestions thus far. 

[RLWP]

6 hours ago, Yarravalleymodeller said:

 https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1867EnV23-p316.jpg

 

Identical design of string hangers, also the rod taking the load from axle box to spring is again on the outside of the frames.

 

No expert by a long shot but it's more convincing to me than any other suggestions thus far. 

 

From link above

 

 

Richard

Edited September 2, 2019 by RLWP

[Yarravalleymodeller]

On 01/07/2019 at 04:54, Steamport Southport said:

I've seen something similar before. Possibly Welsh.

 

 

 

 

Jason

https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/2b83520d-61c8-32ab-9d4f-a231ea63ab16/Taff-Vale-Railway-locomotive-photograph/?field0=string&value0=Taff Vale locomotive&field1=with_images&value1=on&index=2

 

This Taff Vale loco has it, there is also a dubious water colour painting of a Taff Vale 0-6-0  loco allegedly named "venus" which is in the NRM collection which shows the same features in its springs. Unfortunately not been able to pin down the builder of either of these. 

 

Interestingly the Taff Vale 0-6-0 also has a similar gusset between the smoke box and frames... 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Yarravalleymodeller
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