Märklin digital signal with the DCC does not...

[Guest]

Hello!

I have problem.

For some days ago i did bought Märklin digital semaphore which supports DCC too.

I connect everything correct but the signal will not work.

I use Lenz system.

When i use Märklin system the semaphore does work!

Why cannot semaphore work with the Lenz system?

I did even correct adress but still no respons.

All wires connect right too.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Could be that it is Marklin compatible and not DCC - they have their own digital standards of MM and mfx though there is often a way to make their proprietary standard accept the DCC trademark of digital control.

 

often the answer is in the manual for the accessory.

 

EDIT - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Märklin_Digital

Edited July 23, 2019 by WIMorrison
Added URL

[Guest]

Did you even read my first topic?

I did wrote semaphore support DCC protocol too.

[WIMorrison]

You have a very strange way of saying thank you for offering help to solve your issue.

 

Good Bye

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

You have a very strange way of saying thank you for offering help to solve your issue.

 

Good Bye

I don´t understand? 

I did wrote signal support DCC.

Why is that so hard to understand it?

[RobjUK]

See page 8 of the manual for that signal, here:

https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/67/79/6779d23d0cd1f0bb22b0f69319e1b9111537192029.pdf

 

Do you have the address you are trying to use set on the DIP Switches? The instructions are very poor, but it seems you must set an address using the switches before you can do anything else with DCC operation.

 

It also says "programming track only" for setup, implying you cannot have anything else connected to the programming system while configuring it.

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, RobjUK said:

See page 8 of the manual for that signal, here:

https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/67/79/6779d23d0cd1f0bb22b0f69319e1b9111537192029.pdf

 

Do you have the address you are trying to use set on the DIP Switches? The instructions are very poor, but it seems you must set an address using the switches before you can do anything else with DCC operation.

 

It also says "programming track only" for setup, implying you cannot have anything else connected to the programming system while configuring it.

 

In the signal there is dip switch and i did choice that adress and number 10 on for the DCC protocol.

Nothing did worked.

[Sol]

It may pay to ask on the Maerklin forum

https://www.marklin-users.net/Forum/

[RobjUK]

There is a possibly relevant bit on page 32 of an ESU manual, here:

http://www.esu.eu/uploads/tx_esudownloads/00810-08526_ECoS_2_Handbuch_ESUKG_EN_User_manual_Edition_I_February_2010_eBook.pdf

 

It's for a slightly different signal type, but yours may need the same procedure.

 

In essence it says connect to the programming track output, turn the controller on then track power off and on again??

That seems to put the signal in an alternate mode to accept programming, if I'm interpreting it correctly.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by RobjUK

[Guest]

On 24/07/2019 at 09:05, RobjUK said:

There is a possibly relevant bit on page 32 of an ESU manual, here:

http://www.esu.eu/uploads/tx_esudownloads/00810-08526_ECoS_2_Handbuch_ESUKG_EN_User_manual_Edition_I_February_2010_eBook.pdf

 

It's for a slightly different signal type, but yours may need the same procedure.

 

In essence it says connect to the programming track output, turn the controller on then track power off and on again??

That seems to put the signal in an alternate mode to accept programming, if I'm interpreting it correctly.

 

There is no need to program Märklin semaphore since Märklin do present how to set digital signal by use DIP switch.

To program the digital signal has to do about to set the adress of the signal by not use DIP switch.

Märklin central station CS3 are set at DCC protocol too.

It works while Lenz it does not.

[Phil S]

Have you tried the adress 4 higher and 4 lower than the one you expect?  The dcc spec is/was bad in specifying the relationshp between 'user' number and 'accessory' addess.  Roco used to be offset by 4 ... but this is now optional in the z21/Z21.

So try (if on Marklin cs3 in dcc mode the address is '15' .... try 11 and 19 to see if one works.

(It is due to cv1=0 or cv1=1 being the First address used by a system ...where cv1 controls addresses in blocks of 4.

Also useful to remember:...

 when a 'learn' button is used to 'accept' the operationAl address being sent, this offset is hidden unless the central unit is changed to another make and not relearnt)

[RobjUK]

1 hour ago, Anders63 said:

Märklin central station CS3 are set at DCC protocol too.

It works while Lenz it does not.

 

That changes the whole context of the question!

 

The first post implies that it worked with Marklin protocol (system) but not DCC..

On 23/07/2019 at 07:27, Anders63 said:

When i use Märklin system the semaphore does work!

Why cannot semaphore work with the Lenz system?

 

Later on you kept saying it supports DCC, but you never never that it worked with DCC from the Marklin controller.

 

 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, RobjUK said:

 

That changes the whole context of the question!

 

The first post implies that it worked with Marklin protocol (system) but not DCC..

 

Later on you kept saying it supports DCC, but you never never that it worked with DCC from the Marklin controller.

 

 

I did wrote in the first topic, that digital signal are set at DCC protocol which means work for the CS3 too because the CS3 are already set at DCC protocol.

We discuss why Lenz system cannot change digital signal with the DCC protocol.

The CS3 is not the problem.

The problem are Lenz VS digital semaphore with the DCC protocol.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Phil S said:

Have you tried the adress 4 higher and 4 lower than the one you expect?  The dcc spec is/was bad in specifying the relationshp between 'user' number and 'accessory' addess.  Roco used to be offset by 4 ... but this is now optional in the z21/Z21.

So try (if on Marklin cs3 in dcc mode the address is '15' .... try 11 and 19 to see if one works.

(It is due to cv1=0 or cv1=1 being the First address used by a system ...where cv1 controls addresses in blocks of 4.

Also useful to remember:...

 when a 'learn' button is used to 'accept' the operationAl address being sent, this offset is hidden unless the central unit is changed to another make and not relearnt)

Märklin digital semaphore can be use with the DIP switch at the MM or DCC by choice.

To program the semaphore you must set DIP switch to zero.

The DIP switch are to set the adress and choice protocol.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Anders63 said:

I did wrote in the first topic, that digital signal are set at DCC protocol which means work for the CS3 too because the CS3 are already set at DCC protocol.

We discuss why Lenz system cannot change digital signal with the DCC protocol.

The CS3 is not the problem.

The problem are Lenz VS digital semaphore with the DCC protocol.

 

I know of two issues which may be relevant.   But, without either some more clues, or a DCC packet analyser on the track output, its going to be hard to pin down.

 

 

1)  Different interpretations of the Accessory address in the DCC standard (in simple terms there are two ways to read the standard, and different makers use either method).  This means that one manufacturer's products may have an address offset to another manufacturer's interpretation of the standard.   So, accessory address 9 on one system, may be address 5 or address 13 on the other maker's systems.      If its this problem, then the solution is to find out the relevant offset, and apply it for the situation.

 

2)  Some makers don't send a packet to turn off the accessory when it's no longer used.  Those makers (Lenz included) assume accessories work in a pair (eg. "up" and "down" for a signal) and that sending the "up" command implies turning off the "down" command.  Other makers send, and expect that an explicit "turn down off" command is sent.  If its this one, not sure how one can fix the problem in the devices. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

I know of two issues which may be relevant.   But, without either some more clues, or a DCC packet analyser on the track output, its going to be hard to pin down.

 

 

1)  Different interpretations of the Accessory address in the DCC standard (in simple terms there are two ways to read the standard, and different makers use either method).  This means that one manufacturer's products may have an address offset to another manufacturer's interpretation of the standard.   So, accessory address 9 on one system, may be address 5 or address 13 on the other maker's systems.      If its this problem, then the solution is to find out the relevant offset, and apply it for the situation.

 

2)  Some makers don't send a packet to turn off the accessory when it's no longer used.  Those makers (Lenz included) assume accessories work in a pair (eg. "up" and "down" for a signal) and that sending the "up" command implies turning off the "down" command.  Other makers send, and expect that an explicit "turn down off" command is sent.  If its this one, not sure how one can fix the problem in the devices. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

To use DIP switch and we say for example adress 1, the signal are set at adress 1.

This simple rules does work in all digital system if you even choice DCC protocol depends of the digital system.

Märklin CS3 are set at DCC protocol like Lenz too.

But the digital semaphore does not work by use Lenz while the Märklin CS3 it does.

I did used same adress 1 at the signal.

When you set the signal with the DCC protocol, you can only use this protocol whatever to use the digital system.

[Nigelcliffe]

58 minutes ago, Anders63 said:

To use DIP switch and we say for example adress 1, the signal are set at adress 1.

This simple rules does work in all digital system if you even choice DCC protocol depends of the digital system.

Märklin CS3 are set at DCC protocol like Lenz too.

But the digital semaphore does not work by use Lenz while the Märklin CS3 it does.

I did used same adress 1 at the signal.

When you set the signal with the DCC protocol, you can only use this protocol whatever to use the digital system.

 

As both I and Phil S said in the thread above - we don't know which of two readings of the DCC standard was used by Lenz and Marklin.   If both used the same reading, then address 1 should work on both systems.   If they picked opposite readings, then there is a problem.  

 

Do you have other accessory devices which work correctly if the command station is swapped ?  On the same addresses ?   If yes, then the address interpretation issue does not appear to be relevant.   If no, then:     Try setting the signal to address 5.   Now try all addresses from 1 through to 9 to see if it operates on the Lenz system. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

When i use Märklin light signal i must swap the digital wires to make it work with the Lenz system.

When i use Märklin turnout decoder m83 and switch decoder m84 set at the DCC protocol it works with the Lenz system, no matter of the adress.

So i suspect there is some fault with the signals that it work only with Märklin system for the reason?

 

[Phil S]

Have you yet tried to set the Marklin digital signal address to DCC 5 ?

(And confirmed that it works as expected on the cs3 dcc mode as address 5 stop/go etc.

HAVE YOU THEN teared it on the Lenz System TRYING ALL OF THE ADDRESSES 1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 ???

IT SHOULD respond on 1 of these ... BUT it could be 1 or 5  or 9 due to the different interpretations of the nmra standard

 

TESTING USING ADDRESS 1 on the switch settings  is NOT conclusive  when/if it does not then work on the Lenz .... it may be responding to the highest possible address ...less 3 or 4 8-)

1 - 4 = - 3 .... this cannot be sent

5 - 4 = 1

9 - 4 = 5

 

Your answer about the m83/84 Marklin accessory decoders was also unclear .... you did not state what address it was programed for, and which addresses they responded to.  We cannot see what you are trying .... only try to follow what info you clearly state.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Phil S
Added numerical offset examples

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Phil S said:

Have you yet tried to set the Marklin digital signal address to DCC 5 ?

(And confirmed that it works as expected on the cs3 dcc mode as address 5 stop/go etc.

HAVE YOU THEN teared it on the Lenz System TRYING ALL OF THE ADDRESSES 1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 ???

IT SHOULD respond on 1 of these ... BUT it could be 1 or 5  or 9 due to the different interpretations of the nmra standard

 

TESTING USING ADDRESS 1 on the switch settings  is NOT conclusive  when/if it does not then work on the Lenz .... it may be responding to the highest possible address ...less 3 or 4 8-)

1 - 4 = - 3 .... this cannot be sent

5 - 4 = 1

9 - 4 = 5

 

Your answer about the m83/84 Marklin accessory decoders was also unclear .... you did not state what address it was programed for, and which addresses they responded to.  We cannot see what you are trying .... only try to follow what info you clearly state.

You have two possible way by set Märklin digital accessories with DIP switch or to programming track.

I used DIP switch way and m83/m84 it does work with the Lenz while digital signals it does not work.

m84 was set at first group adress 1-4 and the signal was set at adress 5.

Semaphore at adress 5 did not worked and i did also tested in another adress but still no respons.

I believe it´s Lenz system that are fault when there is no respons with the digital signals.

When i use Märklin CS3 set with DCC protocol the digital signals is working!

 

[Phil S]

You still do not appear to understand the situation that the USERS** address in DCC accessories is NOT DEFINED (adequately) by the NMRA 'standard'

 

**address appearing on the controller screen which may not be the same as the electronic dcc-address sent to the decoder for reasons explained previously 

 

This is not a problem experienced within Marklin Mfx because that is a '1-company' design ...dcc was originally designed by Lenz and adopted by the NMRA with some slight differences ....including whether counting starts from 0 or 1.

 

If you read a Lenz decoder manual for example... bits are from 0 to 7

But others describe the same values as being bits 1 to 8.

 

The same interpretation/translation confusion affects accessory addressing. There is no rule 2 high dictates how the manufacturer identifies the accessory on the controller...devices with 4 pairs of outputs ( or 8 x 1) were assumed 

So some are based as ' module' and then 'output' then on/offside or left/right .... and Roco v Lenz are the opposite way on that and both use expressnet !!!!!

 

Have you TESTED the signal you gave configured for 5 on the Marklin dcc protocol  (as per it's manual ) on the Lenz System to see if it responds 'AS IF' it had been programmed to EITHER 1 or 9 .... ie 4 lower or higher than you expect from the Marklin dcc setting ?????

 

Please come back after you have made this test ... then if it still does identify the problem we can think of other reasons

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Phil S said:

You still do not appear to understand the situation that the USERS** address in DCC accessories is NOT DEFINED (adequately) by the NMRA 'standard'

 

**address appearing on the controller screen which may not be the same as the electronic dcc-address sent to the decoder for reasons explained previously 

 

This is not a problem experienced within Marklin Mfx because that is a '1-company' design ...dcc was originally designed by Lenz and adopted by the NMRA with some slight differences ....including whether counting starts from 0 or 1.

 

If you read a Lenz decoder manual for example... bits are from 0 to 7

But others describe the same values as being bits 1 to 8.

 

The same interpretation/translation confusion affects accessory addressing. There is no rule 2 high dictates how the manufacturer identifies the accessory on the controller...devices with 4 pairs of outputs ( or 8 x 1) were assumed 

So some are based as ' module' and then 'output' then on/offside or left/right .... and Roco v Lenz are the opposite way on that and both use expressnet !!!!!

 

Have you TESTED the signal you gave configured for 5 on the Marklin dcc protocol  (as per it's manual ) on the Lenz System to see if it responds 'AS IF' it had been programmed to EITHER 1 or 9 .... ie 4 lower or higher than you expect from the Marklin dcc setting ?????

 

Please come back after you have made this test ... then if it still does identify the problem we can think of other reasons

I believe it´s Lenz that are fault since it is an old system which has not been upgraded for years.

It is possible you cannot use Märklin digital signals since it´s new digital accessories.

I did reported my problems and it´s typical that you don´t want to read my problems.

I am not suprised if ESU with the ECoS 2 does work too by use Märklin digital signals.

I decides to stop use Lenz system because my digital signals works anyway when i use Märklin CS3 set at DCC protocol.

It´s not digital signal that is fault...it does Lenz system.