HS2 under review

[edcayton]

Every square foot of england is someones beloved land. Progress is unstoppable, and future generations will need this infrastructure as there will be fewer travel alternatives as the cost (and availiability) of oil ever increases.

 

Dare we deny our offspring (and there future ones also) this infrastructure based on our selfishness and personal perception of beauty.

 

Take a look at the Settle and Carlisle, or indeed the electrified line over Shap & Beattock. Railways ADD to the landscape, (if you deny that you probably should not be on this site). There are also many areas of beauty with no railways which will never have one, Chilterns included, - so not all is being "ruined".

 

 

 

 

 

Brit15

 

 

Better throw me off RMWeb then! New rail lines (especially with OHLE) are just as much a blot on the landscape as motorways. Look at HS1 and the Selby diversion. What happens is that they weather in over time, and the architecture looks better as it gets older, and most railways are 150 years old now.

 

It is also very different choosing to live near an existing feature and having a new railway/road/airport etc built near where you live, Yes, people on here may say that they wouldn't mind the disruption of a new line being built near them, but what about a wind farm/incinerator/nuclear power station?

 

I don't know what is good or bad for THE environment, but I sure as Hell know what I want for MY environment.

 

Ed

 

The same applies to canals in spades!

Edited January 30, 2013 by edcayton

[APOLLO]

Edcayton - I wasn't meaning to be personal, and I understand your points of view though not necessarily agreeing with some of them (and no doubt vice-versa).

 

I was involved many times in my job as a gas engineer with the planning and installation of gas pipelines and associated governing equipment. The siting of governor kiosks (a fibreglass kiosk around 4m x 3m x 2m high, usually green or simulated brick ) brought me no end of problems from folks nearby (and usually NOT affected from them). We did our best to placate folk - but you can't please everybody - AND the thing had to go somewhere OR they would freeze this winter AND have cold beans for tea every night !!!. (The tales I could tell --- !!). It was doing this work that I learned the fact - "Never buy a house with a nice view". (some sod will later spoil it !!).

 

Technology came to the rescue eventually (for alot - but not all) cases in the  form of the ERS govenor module - placed underground and out of sight except for a vent stack and small control box - yes, you've guessed it - folk complained about those also - what's that?, why there?, why me?.

 

Exactly the same with HS2. Difficult, nay, impossible to please everyone in our modern, high tech, crowded little isle.

 

Brit15

[Glorious NSE]

We had similar consternation in the papers down here a couple of years back when it emerged that there was a cellphone mast on a tall building in the suburbs of town - cue people saying 'we understand we need to have cellphone masts to make our phones work, but why can't they be out in the country and not where people are.....'

 

 

are just as much a blot on the landscape as motorways. Look at HS1

 

 

That looks pretty smart for most of it's rural length, and vastly less disruptive to the eye/ear than the adjacent motorways...IMHO, etc etc...

 

 

(And i'd bet on the landscaping having grown a lot since 2007 when that was taken....)

Edited January 30, 2013 by Glorious NSE

[rob D2]

Wow, Mickey - "payback time for the south " eh ? Hard to hide that chip on the shoulder

 

 

 

4630, I agree that it's a shame that any of the country has to put up with this blight. And I'd be happy for Wycombe to take a track down the centre, it's a dump but not typical of the chilterns at all.

 

I don't want to get drawn into politics - it's not allowed, but this will polarise views on here, both left and right. So No more comment from me on this thread.

Edited January 30, 2013 by rob D2

[The Stationmaster]

We had similar consternation in the papers down here a couple of years back when it emerged that there was a cellphone mast on a tall building in the suburbs of town - cue people saying 'we understand we need to have cellphone masts to make our phones work, but why can't they be out in the country and not where people are.....'

 

 

 

 

That looks pretty smart for most of it's rural length, and vastly less disruptive to the eye/ear than the adjacent motorways...IMHO, etc etc...

 

 

(And i'd bet on the landscaping having grown a lot since 2007 when that was taken....)

I'm quite good at getting council local planning meetings to turn down 'phone mast applications - not at all difficult to prove that they are totally unnecessary, even when Vodaphone etc say that they are essential.

 

The business about BNS2 'spoiling' anything is I reckon largely spurious - one only has to look at the LGVs in France which rarely appear to be a blot on the landscape and take far less of a land footprint than any motorway; same with CTRL/HS 1 in Britain - the land take and impact is massively less than that of the in places adjacent motorway.

 

The noise argument is possibly less spurious but to be honest I think the occasional noise of a passing train is considerably less intrusive than the near constant roar of passing motorway traffic and it is in any case very transient.

 

The bit that can cause problems and create mess is the construction phase but you only have to look, again, at CTRL/HS1 to see that almost all evidence of that has now vanished, just the same with the M40 if folk want to talk about the Chilterns although the huge gouge in the scarp face that has been made by the M40 is still - and perhaps always will be - very obvious.

[clecklewyke]

The bit that can cause problems and create mess is the construction phase 

 

Indeed. As an example I have a friend whose house is the converted goods shed at Gorebridge on the Waverley route and whose garden is part of the old goods yard. The railway of course is being restored and when complete will not be too intrusive when it's running but the current problem is that the Act for the new railway gave the constructors the right to demand access for works where appropriate. And one of the few places where the railway abuts the road is of course the old goods yard, so they have demanded access via her garden. Although contractors are supposed to be considerate to landowners affected, with regard to noise, dirt, times of work etc., sub-contractors are pretty lax about this. As a consequence, her garden has been largely destroyed and life is hell.

[griffgriff]

You're saying that like it's not a good result? HS2 is about providing extra capacity. The WCML should still remain as busy as it is now, just that the mix of traffic on it will be different.

 

at £34 Billion  it's not really much of a silver lining is it???

[Edwin_m]

It's understandable that a lot of people in the Chilterns are opposed to HS2, since they get the pain but none of the gain (not even better train service from released capacity as that will be on the WCML further east).  Further north I think there is quite a widespread belief (rightly or wrongly) that HS2 will be a big benefit to their region, and that may reduce local opposition in some areas. 

 

Having said that I see the National Forest are expressing concern! 

[Butler Henderson]

Amusing coverage on East Midlands Today last night describing how HS2 would be on a huge viaduct across the M1 and pass Ratcliffe on Soar power station as if they were works of art. Tonight they revealed why it would not go through Derby, Nottingham or Leicester almost as if it was breaking news.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Butler Henderson

[griffgriff]

I would have thought that, too, but the evidence doesn't seem to support us; for example, how many people travelling to Liverpool use London Midland services rather than Virgin? What proportion of passengers take the Southern service from Victoria to Southampton (via Gatwick Airport) rather than using (quicker, more expensive) SWT from Waterloo? The latter comparison is intriguing since it takes about an hour longer via Southern, but is usually at least £25 cheaper. The vast majority of people don't earn £25 an hour, yet the vast majority use the SWT service.

 

There must be data available now for the relative proportions of people using HS1 for London-Kent Coast services rather than cheaper and slower "classic" services? That should give an idea as to whether or not you are correct.

 

Paul

I would agree if the competition on the 'classic' or 'semi fast' routes were that much slower but on the Leeds line at least they don't seem to be

 

Besides HS1 and HS2 are very different beasts... no Javelins just express domestic services, talking of which, can anyone tell me how much will a ticket cost???

 

If it's a reasonable amount, competitive with the opposition, then will I be convinced that it might be a good idea.

[The Stationmaster]

I would agree if the competition on the 'classic' or 'semi fast' routes were that much slower but on the Leeds line at least they don't seem to be

 

Besides HS1 and HS2 are very different beasts... no Javelins just express domestic services, talking of which, can anyone tell me how much will a ticket cost???

 

If it's a reasonable amount, competitive with the opposition, then will I be convinced that it might be a good idea.

Any fare forecasts now for 20 years hence will be totally fictitious and nonsensical.  When it opens the fares will inevitably be market priced and that means they will be priced to compete with whatever alternative modes of travel/routes there are at a broadly similar commercial offer.

 

That is what happened with Eurostar and that is inevitably going to be the only truly sensible way to make sure that trains on HS2 load well.

[griffgriff]

Any fare forecasts now for 20 years hence will be totally fictitious and nonsensical.  When it opens the fares will inevitably be market priced and that means they will be priced to compete with whatever alternative modes of travel/routes there are at a broadly similar commercial offer.

 

That is what happened with Eurostar and that is inevitably going to be the only truly sensible way to make sure that trains on HS2 load well.

Of course it is...

 

Pie in the sky isn't it

 

... and we're going to bet the farm on it

[griffgriff]

Yep... that's about £1000 per household in taxes.  Admittedly the plan is not to use taxes to pay for the thing but government figures rely on the economy being -dory by 2017... yeah right!

[Coombe Barton]

HS2 Project Director defends Toton as the choice - BBC vid - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21268628#TWEET568358

[GoingUnderground]

...........I don't know what is good or bad for THE environment, but I sure as Hell know what I want for MY environment........

 

And to hell with the rest of us, eh?

 

It doesn't suit you so we can't have it, no matter how much it will benefit us.

 

Don't you think you're being just a tad selfish?

 

Just think about what you've said the next time you drive on a motorway or dual cariageway. Someone living next to that when it was proposed could and probably did say exactly the same as you've just said. As it suits you you're quite prepared to sacrifice their environment for your benefit. But when the boot's on the other foot you're not prepared to make a comparable sacrifice for someone else's benefit.

[griffgriff]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not naturally pessimistic (believe it or not) but this dark cloud is very very dark and until I see some light I'm going carry on worrying.  I mean rising fuel costs, inflation, job security, wage freezes, real time falls in income.... need I go on

 

Anyway it time to escape into my miniature world, the real one terrifies me

[Peter Kazmierczak]

HS2 Project Director defends Toton as the choice - BBC vid - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21268628#TWEET568358

Interesting that no mention of why East Midlands Parkway wasn't chosen as the site insted of Toton.

[Armchair Modeller]

You do realise that £32 bn is equivilant to less than 5% of total Government Expenditure for one whole year??

 

Not only that. There is the multiplier effect to take into account. The money doesn't just disappear - it goes round and round and round again. The Government get much of it back in taxes (assuming they don't get Amazon, Google etc. to build it). This then gets spent again........ and so on.

[melmerby]

 

 

Motorways cause far more noise, pollution and damage to the landscape than railways.

But you can't drive Chelsea Tractors on a railway

 

Keith

[Christopher125]

Interesting that no mention of why East Midlands Parkway wasn't chosen as the site insted of Toton.

 

If i remember the options document correctly the final choice actually came down to Toton versus a station in Derby, East Midlands Parkway performed poorly against the former at least in part due to the expense of building a station and it's situation in green belt with no scope for development or regeneration.

 

Chris

Edited January 30, 2013 by Christopher125

[Joseph_Pestell]

Although this topic veers dangerously towards politics, I would be intrigued to learn how having a fast link to the North will re balalance the nation's wealth and provide more jobs.....is it just that those N of the SE will be able to get there quicker for 'all' of the massive buoyant job market there is there now.....

 

I'm not a fan of the term NIMBY as it's paraded around like some sort of medical condition, when in actual fact why should anyone's house, lifestyle or view 'take one for the team'...

I sure as heck am outraged at the destruction of my beloved Chilterns although I don't live there anymore

 

It takes a bit more than one railway line to cause the "destruction" of The Chilterns - or any other hilly area. It's this sort of exaggerated comment that gets the opponents a bad name when some of their points are in fact valid. Far less damage would be caused if we settled for a lower speed (186mph/300kph) which would have remarkably little impact on journey times.

[Joseph_Pestell]

You do realise that £32 bn is equivilant to less than 5% of total Government Expenditure for one whole year??

 

And they are going to be spending it over so long that it will be less than 0.5% per annum. But just as importantly, so long as British firms get the contracts and use British workers, a huge part of that £32bn will come straight back in the form of various taxes. So it does not really cost anything like that much.

[Fenman]

And they are going to be spending it over so long that it will be less than 0.5% per annum. But just as importantly, so long as British firms get the contracts and use British workers, a huge part of that £32bn will come straight back in the form of various taxes. So it does not really cost anything like that much.

And, for perspective, it's substantially less than we'll be spending on building submarines over a rather shorter period of time. I write that not to make a political point, but to emphasise that, although £32bn seems like a huge number, in government spending terms it is not wildly big.

 

Paul

[Joseph_Pestell]

One of the TV/press reports quoted a Leeds politician as saying that they should start building from there. This was derided but I think the guy has a point. The route is far less contentious than through the Chilterns and there will be a lot of economic regeneration created around the new stations at Toton and Meadowhall as well as in Leeds. In economic terms, it pretty much pays for itself. With add-on electrification to Bristol, there could be a step change improvement to Cross Country and MML services even continuing to use existing rolling stock over the new route for the time being.

[jamie92208]

One of our Look North reporters (Harry Gration) actually put that question to David Cameron in an interview and got an interesting reply along the lines of that they had to get the politcally difficult bit done first eg the Chilterns.  I don't think that we should underestimate the amount of internal opposition that Cameron has to deal with.  To me, as a man who sees politicians as a necessary evil, I have actually been impressed by the way that HS2 has been carried forward by the current government.  After all it was kick started by Andrew Adonis.

 

 

Jamie