Imaginary Locomotives

[Suzie]

I couldn't help myself - just don't tell anyone!

 

 

 

 

 

[cheesysmith]

iIRC the em2 society were after one of the ex EPS generator coaches to do exactly what has been proposed above, to allow their loco to run up and down preserved lines. If you wanted to do this on the big railway, there would be no technical reason whY not, as the present EMUs with 3phase AC motors already take 25kv AC and change it to high voltage DC, just take a electrostar coach and connect it via cables to the em2.

 

And before you ask why has nobody done this before, they have. The alvia high speed train involved in the crash in 2013 is just such a hybrid. It has variable gauge talgo passive tilting coaches between 2 power cars (AC & DC). To extend the areas they can serve, some have been modified with a extra coach behind the loco with a 2400hp generator in, so they can be used away from the wires. Before you say this is a silly idea, it allows you to have the generator coach that is lighter, with no motors or cab to carry around, better track friendly bogies, and the diesel generator will require more maintenance than the electric bits, so you can continue to use the rest of the electric train whilst the diesel bit is down for repairs (or even have a spare to put in its place, a spare generator coach would be cheaper than a diesel electric loco).

[cheesysmith]

A articulated pacer would probably ride better that the present pacers do. With a more rigid connection between coaches, it would allow the single axle suspension to move around to follow the track, independent of the bodies, instead of as at present the bodiy following the axles over every imperfection or bump that they encounter.

[Martino]

The pacer I came home on today appeared to have moss growing in one of the window frames.

 

(Driver's window where it extends into the passenger area. I think possibly the other half of the window used to be able to slide that far but the cab walls have been sealed all the way across leaving the groove redundant).

I used to have an Austin Mini Cooper like that. Moss in the window frames is what held it together (along with a few pounds of polyfilla).

[DCB]

The pacer I came home on today appeared to have moss growing in one of the window frames.

 

 

Its a special sort of expandable organic filler strip to prevent the glass rattling.

[DavidB-AU]

Speaking of electric to diesel conversions, a hypothetical EE Type 3 in the shell of an 86.

 

 

Cheers
David

Edited October 3, 2017 by DavidB-AU

[DavidB-AU]

And an alternative 67.

 

 

Cheers

David

[rockershovel]

I'm impressed with the post-electric technology but left behind with all the Frenchy lingo. Does friotteure refer to the pick-up or the rustic "isolation" joint in the rails?

I believe that Japanese trains are also equipped with them.....

[Corbs]

The two above look believable, more modern versions of the class 74!

[melmerby]

I'm surprised the idea of a motor-generator unit hasn't been taken up by heritage railways so that some of the preserved EMUs could be driven "electrically" again which they are unlikely to do ever do again.

As they wouldn't need to go above 25mph only a small unit would be required.

 

Of course Viva-Rail have taken it further with motor generators under the floor of the old LT surface stock!

 

Keith

[Kelly]

I'm surprised the idea of a motor-generator unit hasn't been taken up by heritage railways so that some of the preserved EMUs could be driven "electrically" again which they are unlikely to do ever do again.

As they wouldn't need to go above 25mph only a small unit would be required.

 

Of course Viva-Rail have taken it further with motor generators under the floor of the old LT surface stock!

 

Keith

At least one does in a sense, iirc it is the east Kent, they have at least one working mlv with replaced batteries that can pull the emu stock that is 1951 based.

 

The great central railway used to have a modified cig/big with a 33/1 until network rail bought the power car and driving cars for the motor gubbins (scrapping the driving cars after).

[Suzie]

I always thought that it would be a good idea to drop a generator in to something like a Mk3 DVT (will 4000HP fit?) to hook on to the front of electric trains at places like Cardiff or Bath to take them to the end while waiting for wiring to be finished. It has got to be a cheaper alternative than fitting loads of little diesel engines and generators to every single train! Operationally they are a lot easier than changing a loco - just leave the generator unit at the end of the platform when detached ready for the next incoming electric to buffer up to - and the driver does not have far to walk!.

It should not take much to make an automatic 3-phase coupler compatible with whatever the 800 series has.

 

Bi-mode is really a bit bonkers for anything other than last-mile freight and DMUs that occasionally run under the wires. While the reluctance to wire the few miles to Felixstowe seems hard to understand it would probably work for electric freight at Ipswich too with a bigger twin-cab generator plugged in to a 92.

[DavidB-AU]

The two above look believable, more modern versions of the class 74!

So here's an electric to diesel to electro-diesel conversion.

 

 

Cheers

David

Edited October 3, 2017 by DavidB-AU

[Northmoor]

I'm surprised the idea of a motor-generator unit hasn't been taken up by heritage railways so that some of the preserved EMUs could be driven "electrically" again which they are unlikely to do ever do again.

As they wouldn't need to go above 25mph only a small unit would be required.

 

 

We did precisely this in the AC Loco Group about 10 years ago.  Using what had once been the BR Exhibition train's generator coach, we could produce enough oomph to run all the auxiliaries in any one of the AC1-5 (assuming we could convert to the right voltage, each loco is different!).  However I don't think we ever had all three of the engines running at once, which would have produced enough for some traction power....

 

However, plugging the locos into the wall was more fun.  Starting all the cooling fans on an electric loco in Barrow Hill shed attracted an enormous amount of attention, as all the photographers expected the loco to start moving......  (Does anyone remember the dark wet October Barrow Hill Open Day when the power went out? <ahem> We might have had something to do with that).

[Coryton]

I always thought that it would be a good idea to drop a generator in to something like a Mk3 DVT (will 4000HP fit?) to hook on to the front of electric trains at places like Cardiff or Bath to take them to the end while waiting for wiring to be finished. It has got to be a cheaper alternative than fitting loads of little diesel engines and generators to every single train! Operationally they are a lot easier than changing a loco - just leave the generator unit at the end of the platform when detached ready for the next incoming electric to buffer up to - and the driver does not have far to walk!.

 

Unfortunately Cardiff Central isn't well provided enough with platforms that leaving anything at the end of a platform line for long would work that well.

 

Maybe if platform 0 could be used exclusively for Swansea trains, but I doubt it's long enough.

 

 

It should not take much to make an automatic 3-phase coupler compatible with whatever the 800 series has.

 

An automatic coupler that copes with enough amps to power a whole train might be a bit awkward if that's what you're suggesting.

 

Platform level jumpers might make more sense.

[Pacific231G]

  

 

I am disgusted. I have the latest edition of the Collins-Robert French Dictionary, and neither frottage nor frotteur appears in it. (Actually a lot of French railway technical terms do not appear in it, so I've had to make my own list thereof).

I have a copy of the Hachette Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Langue Française and though it's sometimes quite good on railway terms there are plenty of gaps including frotteur.  But equally my copy of the Concise OED doesn't include "turnout" as a railway term but only point (usu. plural). It does include the railway definiton of "frog" and I suppose the alternative "crossing" is covered by the word's generic definition though that wouldn't differentiate a frog from a full diamond crossing.

 

For a word you're not sure of It is sometimes useful to have a dictionary definition in the language in question. A translating dictionary will often use the closest word in English and that's usually  fine for everyday words but may well not be when you need a more precise translation (Try getting a room for the night in the Hôtel de Ville though to be fair even halfway decent pocket French-English dictionaries usually get that one) 

 

Even that doesn't always work and you sometimes need to know more. A "poste" can be a fuly manned signal box but amongst other things can also be an auxiliary ground frame. I also know exactly what a "rame" is but it's quite hard to define its full railway operational meaning in English. My Collins thinks it only applies to the metro where it's a train, Hachette simply defines it as "a line of coupled coaches", the American "consist" might be closer but it can also mean what we'd call a "set" such as an EMU set as in a "2 rame TGV".   

Edited October 3, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Compound2632]

I have a copy of the Hachette Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Langue Française and though it's sometimes quite good on railway terms there are plenty of gaps including frotteur.  But equally my copy of the Concise OED doesn't include "turnout" as a railway term but only point (usu. plural) Iit does include the railway definiton of "frog" and I suppose the alternative "crossing" is covered by the word's generic definition though that wouldn't differentiate a frog from a full diamond crossing.

 

For a word you're not sure of It is sometimes useful to have a dictionary definition in the language in question. A translating dictionary will often use the closest word in English and that's usually  fine for everyday words but may well not be when you need a more precise translation (Try getting a room for the night in the Hôtel de Ville though to be fair even halfway decent pocket French-English dictionaries usually get that one) 

 

Even that doesn't always work and you sometimes need to know more. A "poste" can be a fuly manned signal box but amongst other things can also be an auxiliary ground frame. I also know exactly what a "rame" is but it's quite hard to define its full railway operational meaning in English. My Collins thinks it only applies to the metro where it's a train, Hachette simply defines it as "a line of coupled coaches", the American "consist" might be closer but it can also mean what we'd call a "set" such as an EMU set as in a "2 rame TGV".   

 

Once upon a time when I had more time for such things and my French was more up-to-speed after a couple of years of living in Paris, I read Zola's La Bete humaine in the original - a great introduction to nineteenth-century French railway terminology.

[Suzie]

Unfortunately Cardiff Central isn't well provided enough with platforms that leaving anything at the end of a platform line for long would work that well.

 

Maybe if platform 0 could be used exclusively for Swansea trains, but I doubt it's long enough.

 

 

An automatic coupler that copes with enough amps to power a whole train might be a bit awkward if that's what you're suggesting.

 

Platform level jumpers might make more sense.

 

It will take some planning, but the generator car will just be there until the next Swansea train arrives to pick it up, in my quick glance at the timetable it will sit at Cardiff Central for 7 minutes (arrives on a xx:47 arrival from Swansea to London, and departs on a xx:54 departure back to Swansea). If dropped in platform 2 I am sure there would be limited disruption.

 

Getting the Amps and Volts right is key to making the coupling manageable, but 3-phase AC will help to share the current over three conductors rather than two (or one if the rails/chassis are used as return). I guess a big plug on a jumper cable will work.

 

Shame it has already been decided to fit all trains with engines... 

[Coryton]

It will take some planning, but the generator car will just be there until the next Swansea train arrives to pick it up, in my quick glance at the timetable it will sit at Cardiff Central for 7 minutes (arrives on a xx:47 arrival from Swansea to London, and departs on a xx:54 departure back to Swansea). If dropped in platform 2 I am sure there would be limited disruption.

 

Getting the Amps and Volts right is key to making the coupling manageable, but 3-phase AC will help to share the current over three conductors rather than two (or one if the rails/chassis are used as return). I guess a big plug on a jumper cable will work.

 

Shame it has already been decided to fit all trains with engines... 

 

OK those times do seem to work out quite nicely.

 

However one of those trains is going to have to use a platform normally used by trains going the other way - crossing over to do that might cause pathing problems for other trains.

 

But of course the real problem is what happens when a train is late. Either the generator is sitting there waiting for a late train and blocking the platform or - worse - the train to Swansea is held up waiting for its generator to arrive, as if the line to Swansea was single track and it had to wait for the other train to clear the line. At least an IET is pretty much guaranteed to arrive at the same time as its generators (if not you have worse problems to worry about).

 

As for plugs, the car ferries from Harwich to the Hook of Holland (claimed to be the largest in the world) connect to a shore supply (literally) when they are in the docks, so if someone can make a plug to handle that sort of current I reckon a train would be OK.

 

I don't know what the current draw is but I believe it has its own substation. The plug is lifted up with a crane.

[runs as required]

However one of those trains is going to have to use a platform normally used by trains going the other way - crossing over to do that might cause pathing problems for other trains.

But of course the real problem is what happens when a train is late. Either the generator is sitting there waiting for a late train and blocking the platform or - worse - the train to Swansea is held up waiting for its generator to arrive, as if the line to Swansea was single track and it had to wait for the other train to clear the line...

This seems like a case for a really 'far out' Imaginary Loco - we might even call it a "Thunderbird"  !

  dh

[Pacific231G]

OK those times do seem to work out quite nicely.

 

However one of those trains is going to have to use a platform normally used by trains going the other way - crossing over to do that might cause pathing problems for other trains.

 

But of course the real problem is what happens when a train is late. Either the generator is sitting there waiting for a late train and blocking the platform or - worse - the train to Swansea is held up waiting for its generator to arrive, as if the line to Swansea was single track and it had to wait for the other train to clear the line. At least an IET is pretty much guaranteed to arrive at the same time as its generators (if not you have worse problems to worry about).

 

As for plugs, the car ferries from Harwich to the Hook of Holland (claimed to be the largest in the world) connect to a shore supply (literally) when they are in the docks, so if someone can make a plug to handle that sort of current I reckon a train would be OK.

 

I don't know what the current draw is but I believe it has its own substation. The plug is lifted up with a crane.

I once had the weird experience of seeing a TGV under the wires  on the main platform at Les Sables d'Olonne. This didn't seem at all strange until I'd explored the area a bit and found it interesting to still see a single track line unspoilt by the OHE spiders and with mechanical signalling coming into this busy resort  towen. It took a while for the penny to drop that this didn't quite fit with what I'd seen in the station.

 

It turned out that the TGVs were hauled to and from La Roche sur Yon by a diesel loco specially fitted with Scharfenberg couplers and power connections. The actual catenary was confined to the one platform effectively to provide a shore supply for lighting and A/C and possibly to fool the travelling public into not spotting the TGV obsessed SNCF's little trick 

The branch has been electrified and rationalised since of course so is far less interesting.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Corbs]

Wasn't the Class 57 was a way of solving the above problems when the WCML upgrades were going on?

[Coryton]

I once had the weird experience of seeing a TGV under the wires  on the main platform at Les Sables d'Olonne. This didn't seem at all strange until I'd explored the area a bit and found it interesting to still see a single track unelectrified line with mechanical signalling. It took me a while to realise that didn't quite fit with what I'd seen in the station.

 

It turned out that the TGVs were hauled to and from La Roche sur Yon by a diesel loco specially fitted with Scharfenberg couplers and power connections. The actual catenary was confined to the one platform effectively to provide a shore supply for lighting and A/C and possibly to fool the travelling public into not spotting the TGV obsessed SNCF's little trick 

The branch has been electrified and rationalised since of course so is far less interesting.

 

Interesting. But was the diesel actually providing power to the TGV's traction motors, or just pushing/pulling it like a Pendolino to Holyhead?

 

The first time I saw a TGV was at a station yet to be electrified, to show the public what a treat they had in store. 

 

Rather good fun - not only were they letting people into the cab, but you got to walk through the engine room and out the other side.

[TT3]

Does a metro bic draw its own train!

 

And does it run on ball point bearings!!

[LNWR18901910]

I don't know if you all read the original RWS Books, but Henry in his old shape is interesting to see because he is one of the many Freelance steam locomotives many would attempt in model form.