Imaginary Locomotives

[PhilJ W]

IIRC some of those six wheel hopper wagons it was hauling were British made.

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

It's a god-awful looking thing, but it seems to run well enough.  Steady as a rock, no slipping and fussing.  Impressed.

 

Twenty minutes of hot brake-pump action, with bonus man-getting-out-of-Volvo.  Cracking stuff 

 

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

The Americans got it right, though - there’s no reason why a locomotive of this sort, needs to look like a Stephenson steam loco at all

 

Most of theirs were turbo-electrics though and they have a long history of looking unusual (Reid-Ramsay anyone?).  Their turbo-mechanical looked Stephensonian too, a form mostly dIctated by the boiler.

 

One great advantage of the turbine is no hammer-blow and the LMS Turbomotive seems to have had a frame suspended transmission as well.  Better than an AL6 in that respect.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Flying Pig

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Twenty minutes of hot brake-pump action, with bonus man-getting-out-of-Volvo.  Cracking stuff 

 

 

Most of theirs were turbo-electrics though and they have a long history of looking unusual (Reid-Ramsay anyone?).  Their turbo-mechanical looked Stephensonian too, a form mostly dIctated by the boiler.

 

One great advantage of the turbine is no hammer-blow and the LMS Turbomotive seems to have had a frame suspended transmission as well.  Better than an AL6 in that respect.

 

But they also produced THIS 

 

 

... which demonstrates the real reason steam turbines weren’t successful, because by then the railroads had the choice of highly successful last-generation steam locomotives or the EMD E Series diesels, which were clearly the preferred way forwards. 

[rodent279]

4 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Twenty minutes of hot brake-pump action, with bonus man-getting-out-of-Volvo.  Cracking stuff 

 

 

Most of theirs were turbo-electrics though and they have a long history of looking unusual (Reid-Ramsay anyone?).  Their turbo-mechanical looked Stephensonian too, a form mostly dIctated by the boiler.

 

One great advantage of the turbine is no hammer-blow and the LMS Turbomotive seems to have had a frame suspended transmission as well.  Better than an AL6 in that respect.

Yes, looking at Tim Hillier-Graves' book, the final drive was a flexible drive, similar in principle to the flexible drive used in class AL1, AL2 & AL5 locomotives.

[LNWR18901910]

Anyone who's read the first RWS books should remember these nice and simplistic locomotive designs.

https://www.deviantart.com/realbon1983/art/Reginald-Dalby-first-red-engine-831520033

https://www.deviantart.com/realbon1983/art/Reginald-Dalby-98462-831520150

https://www.deviantart.com/realbon1983/art/Reginald-Dalby-second-red-engine-831520082

https://www.deviantart.com/realbon1983/art/Reginald-Dalby-Henry-Mk1-831519893

https://www.deviantart.com/realbon1983/art/Reginald-Dalby-87546-831520219

This guy on DeviantART does some amazing model locomotives! The first, third and fourth ones I like the best (those being Henry Mk1 and the first and second red engines). Think of how nice it would be to actually make and own physical models of them along with rolling-stock.

[DavidB-AU]

Awdry's original sketch of Henry was an Atlantic.

 

 

The name Henry is variously reported as being after GNR 990 Henry Oakley or Henry Ivatt himself. 

 

William Middleton didn't believe that such a loco existed and drew a 4-6-2 in the first edition.

 

[rockershovel]

On 28/02/2020 at 16:15, Flying Pig said:

 

Twenty minutes of hot brake-pump action, with bonus man-getting-out-of-Volvo.  Cracking stuff 

 

 

 

Very Scandinavian “film noir”. Have you seen the police procedurals foisted on U.K. television viewers in recent months? 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Awdry's original sketch of Henry was an Atlantic.

 

 

The name Henry is variously reported as being after GNR 990 Henry Oakley or Henry Ivatt himself. 

 

William Middleton didn't believe that such a loco existed and drew a 4-6-2 in the first edition.

 

 

Middleton doesn’t seem to believed in the existence of anything else below the footplate, either... did he believe in the existence of talking locomotives with faces on their smokeboxes? 

Edited March 1, 2020 by rockershovel

[Corbs]

On 28/02/2020 at 12:04, PhilJ W said:

Strange little 4 wheel tender.

I believe this is due to very short turntables in Sweden. IIRC the WD 2-8-0 now preserved on the KWVR was part of the Swedish Strategic Reserve for a while and whilst over there had the 8 wheel tender cut down to 6, and was subsequently replaced when back in the UK.

http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=437

http://www.modelrailroading.nl/collection/NS 4300/index.html

[rodent279]

I do find the urge to restore locos to original, or near original, condition, unnecessary and a little disappointing. After all, the locos time in Sweden is an important part of its history, so keeping it in Swedish condition is just as valid as returning it to as-built, or as run on BR condition.

Just my opinion, but I'd love to see one of these repatriated locos restored and operated in the condition in which it operated outside the UK (obviously whilst maintaining compatibility with UK loading gauge requirements as far as possible).

[Corbs]

It’s a difficult one in this case as the only other surviving loco of one of the most numerous classes ever built in the UK was mistakenly cut up (the other SJ one). 
If two were extant then it wouldn’t have to be so much a case of either-or, but in this instance the only way of getting a BR-condition WD 2-8-0 was to adapt the only remaining ex-NS/ex-SJ one.

[RedGemAlchemist]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

I do find the urge to restore locos to original, or near original, condition, unnecessary and a little disappointing.

As do I. Get them running? Sure. But the modifications given to a locomotive are like a kintsugi pot. The cracks and little changes are a part of its history and a part of what makes it unique and beautiful. Get it running again? Sure, if you can. But I'm not one for the idea of destroying a unique loco just for the sake of restoring one to how it used to look.

 

 

16 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

13 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Middleton doesn’t seem to believed in the existence of anything else below the footplate, either...

Makes me wonder as to how Middleton would have depicted Thomas had he been in the job that long. Henry in that picture looks more like a scaled-up narrow-gauge locomotive, or like he's been squashed vertically. I'm interested to see if anyone has actually attempted to try and replicate some of the other art from the series in this style. Call it morbid curiosity.

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I do find the urge to restore locos to original, or near original, condition, unnecessary and a little disappointing. After all, the locos time in Sweden is an important part of its history, so keeping it in Swedish condition is just as valid as returning it to as-built, or as run on BR condition.

Just my opinion, but I'd love to see one of these repatriated locos restored and operated in the condition in which it operated outside the UK (obviously whilst maintaining compatibility with UK loading gauge requirements as far as possible).

 

4 hours ago, Corbs said:

It’s a difficult one in this case as the only other surviving loco of one of the most numerous classes ever built in the UK was mistakenly cut up (the other SJ one). 
If two were extant then it wouldn’t have to be so much a case of either-or, but in this instance the only way of getting a BR-condition WD 2-8-0 was to adapt the only remaining ex-NS/ex-SJ one.

 

I'm in a quandary of agreeing with both of you.  The Dub-dee I can understand, likewise the 2-10-0 being restored as 90775, but if every other one had been repatriated and restored as 90776, 90777 etc., it would have showed a serious lack of imagination.  You could just imagine an "O4" being brought back from Australia, where it's been for almost a century, then repainted in BR livery because that's what the noisiest enthusiasts insist on.

 

Sometimes it seems like half the Austerity tanks have been repainted as J94s; there's an undercurrent among enthusiasts that industrial locomotives aren't "real" locos.  However, the nonsense of having a BR shunting locomotive - "correct" livery or not - hauling passenger trains along a branch line seems to be lost on many.

[Corbs]

4 hours ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

As do I. Get them running? Sure. But the modifications given to a locomotive are like a kintsugi pot. The cracks and little changes are a part of its history and a part of what makes it unique and beautiful. Get it running again? Sure, if you can. But I'm not one for the idea of destroying a unique loco just for the sake of restoring one to how it used to look.

 

 

I disagree, for example I like that the first private owner of Flying Scotsman tore off the smoke deflectors and splashed on some apple green. I love that Coffee Pot No.1 at Beamish looks like it just rolled out of the factory and is not some junked together old heap that looks like it's ready to become baked bean tins. 

 

I don't particularly care that the SJ WD is now representing a BR example because the WD's contribution to the UK was far greater than that of 2 surplus locos in post-war Sweden and I feel that since it is preserved in the UK and not Sweden (where it was due for scrapping and not preservation), that is its purpose. Pastiche or not, the appearance and working practices are the same as the UK-based WDs.

If there was enough demand to rebuild it as a Swedish example then maybe I'd feel differently but there isn't and likely will never be.

 

In other cases I do agree, I think that retaining the bent running board and mismatched buffers on Portbury are good to tell the story of the locomotive, but they don't really prevent its repainting in IW&D livery to represent its early life.

Preservation is about telling multiple stories from different eras, if it all was about preserving the artefact at point of retirement then so much would not be able to be experienced.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Corbs

[rodent279]

Yes, it's a tricky one, and a balance has to be struck. I think the SJ WD did run in near SJ condition for a season or so, didn't it?

As for Austerities, the one that saddens me is the ex-Bold colliery loco, "Robert", now at the GC, vacuum braked, and dolled up as a BR machine. That was one of the stars of Rocket 150 in 1980, in a lovely smart lined green livery. Also it was unique, in that it was the only steam loco there that was genuinely in revenue earning service. Rocket 150 itself is now history.

Edited March 2, 2020 by rodent279

[Corbs]

Yes, I am aware I may have derailed the thread so this morning I knocked this up, the Bulleid 2-8-2 has come up several times though I don't think it's appeared in BR mixed traffic black before. I think it looks smart!

 

 

The motion bracket had to be extended to fit the other side of the leading driver.

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

Yes, I am aware I may have derailed the thread so this morning I knocked this up, the Bulleid 2-8-2 has come up several times though I don't think it's appeared in BR mixed traffic black before. I think it looks smart!

 

 

The motion bracket had to be extended to fit the other side of the leading driver.

Would it work as a 4-8-0?

[The Johnster]

You could build a model as a 4-8-0, but a real loco would probably have too large a firebox to clear the rear driving axle, and, even if it did clear, would have overheated the bearings and got ash into them.  It does look smart in the mixed traffic livery, though!

Edited March 2, 2020 by The Johnster

[rockershovel]

4-8-0 types seem to have been successful on 3 ft, metre and 3 ft 6 in gauge, and some US builders experimented with them.

 

 

[rockershovel]

Found THIS while surfing about... no one has suggested it as a neverwazzer!

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/decapod.htm

[Corbs]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Would it work as a 4-8-0?

 

As said above, either a narrow firebox or shallow grate and ashpan would be needed to clear the axles, and the driving wheels would have to be smaller. The 9F combined wide firebox and driving wheels mounted underneath, just!

[Gibbo675]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

Yes, I am aware I may have derailed the thread so this morning I knocked this up, the Bulleid 2-8-2 has come up several times though I don't think it's appeared in BR mixed traffic black before. I think it looks smart!

 

 

The motion bracket had to be extended to fit the other side of the leading driver.

Hi Corbs,

 

I built a semi austerity mixed traffic version but the varnish bloomed and it was put in a box where it still is. I really should finish it off sometime.

 

 

Gibbo.

[Corbs]

Very nice!

 

I was pontificating this Southern heavy freight loco using the same boiler and cylinders as an S15...

 

 

 

 

[FoxUnpopuli]

I spy an 8F chassis.  Both the Bulleid 2-8-2s look great, well done @Corbs & @Gibbo675.  I'm liking Corbs' version *a lot*. 

 

I have yet to start buying Southern stock, and will definitely be seeking advice for it as I know next to nothing about the whole network...  but I already want one of these (39901 as above).  In my alternate universe, if a channel crossing Ro-Ro-Rail ferry would have been a thing, this would have have been an overnighter permitted motor-freight from Longbridge via Cowley, down to London on GW lines onto Abercrombie's 'freight loop', using the Blackfriars bridge to get to New Waterloo.  Couple of motor-carriage dropoffs, and pickup Europe-bound parcels before heading out to Dover for the RoRoRa...  maybe splitting the train there with help from a Q1 for the ferry and then out to France. Awesome.

 

Imagine a set of streamlined double decker bogie motor transports with Bulleid-like panelling to match the loco!

Edited March 2, 2020 by FoxUnpopuli

[Corbs]

Someone on the 'neverwazza' FB group suggested using the G16 underpinnings with an enlarged boiler to make a 4-8-0.

 

 

The original pic was of an S15, I've left the boiler alone so the firebox sits between 2nd and 3rd coupled axles on this version. I changed the passenger train for a more appropriate goods one ;)

The running plate is stepped like the G16 and H15 with a small splasher over the driving wheels.

 

Original image:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:LSWR_S15_class_of_British_Railways?fbclid=IwAR3S5Op8r3FK8fRSEIPybneghwScONT_WZ8Ys_eCzBO4jZBFo1Q3441-hBM#/media/File:Basingstoke_slow_train_to_Waterloo_geograph-2973415-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg