Imaginary Locomotives

[rodent279]

Heavy trains, high speeds, long distances, curvy, steeply graded lines.

[PenrithBeacon]

OK but Stanier's Pacifics resolved the problem as well as could be done with steam, there just weren't enough of them. As had been said, electrification was the solution. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

OK but Stanier's Pacifics resolved the problem as well as could be done with steam, there just weren't enough of them. 

 

One would suppose that if there was an operational requirement for more, more would have been built in preference to other types. But the number of fast, heavy, expresses was not so very great.

 

Although I was interested to note that the successors to the 38 Princess Coronation pacifics were 36 Class 87s.

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, JimC said:

It must have pleased Hawksworth that the government had bought him a set of blocks intermediate between the Castle and Std 1 sets, which gave him more options.

As well as all sorts of jigs and assembly frames that enabled him to build what was effectively a domeless version of the Stanier 8F boiler for his Counties.  The Counties failed to cover themselves in the glory everyone seeemed to demand of them, and while I am not claiming them to be perfect paragons, they were powerful, efficient, and proved their worth on hilly routes, such as in Cornwall and on the North to West main line.  There seems to me to have been expectations of Hawksworth to provide noted successes in the Churchward tradition and the Collett tradition at least in terms of Halls and Castles. 

 

Nearly all his new locos were unpopular and considered pointless because they did not improve on the previous types in the view of many locomen and enthusiasts; his greatest success seems to have been the 'Modified Hall'.  The Counties were considered inferior to Castles and more Castles were ordered under Hawkworth's tenure, the 94xx were considered to be no advance on the 57xx, despite BR classifying them as a higher power class, the 15xx were given unsuitable work in the form of the Paddington-Old Oak Common ecs, when they would have been better used as intended as dock shunting locos, and the 16xx was simply condemned as being old-fashioned.  I get the impression that he was an awkward and unpopular personality, which could not have helped...

 

[pH]

6 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

OK but Stanier's Pacifics resolved the problem as well as could be done with steam …

Stanier apparently thought he could do better - see his proposed 300 lb pressure, stoker-fitted Baltic.

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, pH said:

Stanier apparently thought he could do better - see his proposed 300 lb pressure, stoker-fitted Baltic.

Hi pH,

 

Most of the locomotives built in Britain for export were far superior machines in terms of, technologies and materials used to build them, features that made them more efficient to operate both in service and maintenance along with general performance when at work, therefore not too difficult to improve anything running on a British railway for about 1900 onwards.

 

Most domestically utilised British locomotives were not much further developed than anything built anywhere in the world by 1910 The only locomotives to get anything like near export quality would be the last of the LMS black fives that had roller bearings, hopper ashpans, rocking grates and steel fireboxes.

 

Should Bullied's pacifics had Caprotti valve gear and roller bearings along with self cleaning smoke boxes then they might have been much better locomotives than they turned out. They may have been fitted with power reverse but it was just about the worst system of those that were available, at least they had good injectors though.

 

Gibbo.

[JimC]

2 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 along with self cleaning smoke boxes 

I wonder if anything so small did more damage to the railways in general and steam in particular than self cleaning smokeboxes? In an era of increasing white collar employment who wanted to travel to the office on a filthy railway if they could travel in a clean car or bus? To my mind its a classic example of the sort of blinkered short term thinking that accelerated the move to road transport. 

[Gibbo675]

10 minutes ago, JimC said:

I wonder if anything so small did more damage to the railways in general and steam in particular than self cleaning smokeboxes? In an era of increasing white collar employment who wanted to travel to the office on a filthy railway if they could travel in a clean car or bus? To my mind its a classic example of the sort of blinkered short term thinking that accelerated the move to road transport. 

Hi Jim,

 

No one seems to mind all of the locomotives that currently work the main lines now that are all fitted with self cleaning smoke boxes. Granted there isn't quite such the scale of steam working over the railways that there was but self cleaning smoke boxes are now order of the day for main line running.

 

Gibbo

[Andy Kirkham]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I get the impression that he was an awkward and unpopular personality, which could not have helped...

 

I was told by someone (Canon Brian Arman) who as a child had been a neighbour of the reired Hawksworth  that he was a Grumpy Old Man, but late in life he married his housekeeper and thereafter was "like a pussycat".

 

I don't think I have ever read any accounts of what Harksworth was like as a person; in photos he gives the impression of a Captain Mainwairing type, but then you might say that of many professional men of his age in that era.

 

I did read, though, that from the day of his retirement he never set foot in Swindon works again,

Edited August 1, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[Andy Kirkham]

3 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Most of the locomotives built in Britain for export were far superior machines in terms of, technologies and materials used to build them, features that made them more efficient to operate both in service and maintenance along with general performance when at work, therefore not too difficult to improve anything running on a British railway for about 1900 onwards.

 

 It's funny how much fuss we make about the CMEs of the railway companies and analyse every aspect of their lives; yet we know nothing of the anonymous men, who must have been at least equally talented, who designed locos for the private builders.

[John Besley]

48 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I was told by someone (Canon Brian Arman) who as a child had been a neighbour of the reired Hawksworth  that he was a Grumpy Old Man, but late in life he married his housekeeper and thereafter was "like a pussycat".

 

I don't think I have ever read any accounts of what Harksworth was like as a person; in photos he gives the impression of a Captain Mainwairing type, but then you might say that of many professional men of his age in that era.

 

I did read, though, that from the day of his retirement he never set foot in Swindon works again,

In 1973 he visited the Dart Valley Railway where at the time 1638 resided including the Paignton line as a 14 year old volunteer I remember seeing him on the platform with the DVR directors

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, JimC said:

I wonder if anything so small did more damage to the railways in general and steam in particular than self cleaning smokeboxes? In an era of increasing white collar employment who wanted to travel to the office on a filthy railway if they could travel in a clean car or bus? To my mind its a classic example of the sort of blinkered short term thinking that accelerated the move to road transport. 

American railway men were astonished when they found out that BR was using SC smokeboxes but the carriages had open windows .

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

American railway men were astonished when they found out that BR was using SC smokeboxes but the carriages had open windows .

Hi David,

 

It wasn't just ash and fines that came through open windows, the first coach could get quite a drenching from an overfilled tender when passing over the troughs, any open windows meant very wet passengers.

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 It's funny how much fuss we make about the CMEs of the railway companies and analyse every aspect of their lives; yet we know nothing of the anonymous men, who must have been at least equally talented, who designed locos for the private builders.

Hi Andy,

 

The personality cult does seem to be a feature of British society which puzzles me greatly from the Queen to Miley Cyrus.

 

Nowt a queer a folk in that regard !

 

Gibbo.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 It's funny how much fuss we make about the CMEs of the railway companies and analyse every aspect of their lives; yet we know nothing of the anonymous men, who must have been at least equally talented, who designed locos for the private builders.

 

Along with the drawing office staff of the railways themselves - Tom Coleman being one of the best known, I suppose, although quite a few of the LMS drawing office staff are reasonably well-known names; partly as a consequence of Henry Fowler's statement that he never designed a locomotive. "Hawksworth designed the Counties" as if he himself sat down at the drawing board on his own in the office...

 

There are some names amongst the locomotive-building companies that deserve to be much better known, starting with Charles Beyer, whose influence was immense and was largely responsible for the "look" of British locomotives in the 19th century.

[Gibbo675]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Along with the drawing office staff of the railways themselves - Tom Coleman being one of the best known, I suppose, although quite a few of the LMS drawing office staff are reasonably well-known names; partly as a consequence of Henry Fowler's statement that he never designed a locomotive. "Hawksworth designed the Counties" as if he himself sat down at the drawing board on his own in the office...

 

There are some names amongst the locomotive-building companies that deserve to be much better known, starting with Charles Beyer, whose influence was immense and was largely responsible for the "look" of British locomotives in the 19th century.

Hi Stephen,

 

Should any one wish to find out what locomotive engineers actually got up to in their working lives I would recommend, "Memoirs of a Locomotive Engineer" by Edgar J Larkin.

 

Two copies on eBay currently, both for less than £10.00.

 

Gibbo.

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

I was told by someone (Canon Brian Arman) who as a child had been a neighbour of the reired Hawksworth  that he was a Grumpy Old Man, but late in life he married his housekeeper and thereafter was "like a pussycat".

 

I don't think I have ever read any accounts of what Harksworth was like as a person; in photos he gives the impression of a Captain Mainwairing type, but then you might say that of many professional men of his age in that era.

 

I did read, though, that from the day of his retirement he never set foot in Swindon works again,

Unlike Churchward who couldn’t be kept out of the place, visiting almost daily to keep up with what was happening, and presumably to socialise and catch up on the gossip, which nobody seemed to mind.  Sadly, it proved his undoing as he had become hard of hearing; crossing the Gloucester line on the way to one of these visits on a foggy morning, he was run down and killed by a train that he had not heard approaching. 
 

It is difficult to asses personality from formal portraits or even group ‘occasion’ photographs; the order of those days was very much ‘straight back, chest out, serious resolute expression, wear a suit and a bowler, and look your best’  Some hints come across somtimes though, Gresley especially looks to have been a genial type, and fits the impression of the relaxed informality of the laid back outdoorsman he certainly was; Churchward was a shooter of game birds as well but Gresley seems to be more like a proper twitcher. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by The Johnster

[Northmoor]

The only story I've read of Hawksworth was told by Riddles, who had beaten him to the CME job in the new British Railways.  Hawksworth of course believed he had been groomed for the job since Collett stated.

When Riddles first met Hawksworth, the latter visibly ignored his outstretched hand.  Riddles took that to heart and later said he got his own back when he got to go to Hawksworth's funeral.......

 

[The Johnster]

Friend of mine, now gone on himself, was a funeral director, and had a garage build by a mutual acquaintance who was a brickie.  The garage leaked and they felt out over it for a while, but he told me he’d have the last laugh; ‘I’ll build the **** a leaky coffin’!

[rodent279]

Now there's fertile ground for imaginary locomotives-Hawksworth in the top job under BR.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Now there's fertile ground for imaginary locomotives-Hawksworth in the top job under BR.

 

Infertile ground.

[Andy Kirkham]

7 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 It's funny how much fuss we make about the CMEs of the railway companies and analyse every aspect of their lives; yet we know nothing of the anonymous men, who must have been at least equally talented, who designed locos for the private builders.

 

I wonder how much  railway CMEs ever talked with the designers from the private builders. Was there a professional institute that included them both?

[rodent279]

11 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

I wonder how much  railway CMEs ever talked with the designers from the private builders. Was there a professional institute that included them both?

The Institute of Locomotive Engineers. It merged with the I.Mech.E in the late 60's.

[rodent279]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Infertile ground.

Actually, I don't think things would necessarily have turned out drastically different. FWH would still have had to pull the big 4 locomotive departments together, and produce designs suitable for all regions. 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

I wonder how much  railway CMEs ever talked with the designers from the private builders. Was there a professional institute that included them both?

 

The Association of Railway Locomotive Engineers (ARLE)? I don't know. I'm not aware of much evidence of staff moving between the drawing offices of the builders and the railway companies, beyond the early years.

 

The private builders were never really happy that the railway companies built their own locomotives and rolling stock, considering that it ought to be deemed to be outside the purposes for which the railway companies were incorporated. At least they managed to put a stop to one company building locomotives for another.