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Can anyone recall the name of the French modeller who was a friend of Mike Sharman?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get details about the early (1850s-60s) double-decker/imperial's

which ran on French railways.

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2 hours ago, Mac said:

 

Can anyone recall the name of the French modeller who was a friend of Mike Sharman?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get details about the early (1850s-60s) double-decker/imperial's

which ran on French railways.

Hi Mac

I don't know the name of the French modeller who knew Mike Sharman (Dennis Allenden was a Yorkshireman living and working in the US) but I do know a bit about the coaches.

 

I wrote an article "Riding Like an Emperor" about double deck coaches in the September 2017 French Railways Society Journal so researched them fairly thoroughly.

The earliest were built for the C.F. de l'Ouest in 1853 who carried on building them until at least 1868. They were for suburban services out of Paris St.Lazare and were absolute death traps with the upper level bench seats effectively bolted onto the flat roof of a four wheel carriage and only protected by a lightweight open sided canopy.

552918726_4.OuestWagon_a_imperialeccGIRAUDPatricklarge.jpg.03a520566b524ebaf32bb3db50c5daef.jpg

 

The lower level compartments had less head room than usual but were otherwise conventional. There were steps at both ends to reach the roof along which passengers had to move very carefully to reach their seat. Stand up too soon and you were liable to have your head knocked off - someone standing  on the upper deck would be well outside the loading gauge- and falls, some of them fatal, from the upper deck  among passengers slipping while getting on or off were weekly occurences.

1294088390_6.Voiture_Ouest__impriale_de_3e_classe.jpg.2d1d1aec9991a5099e4225a404747cb7.jpg

Jouef produced a model of these coaches and, though somewhat crude by modern standards, it was dimensionally accurate

1919803011_5.JouefEtat1.jpg.3b4e05a9688df4c1a317fd25cdc8e33b.jpg

The Est also built a large number of very similar carriages for their suburban services including all the 170 four wheel carriages built for the Ligne  de Vincennes that ran from the Gare de la Bastille in Paris from 1859.

Remarkably, despite their obvious dangers, these coaches were still being used in the western suburbs of Paris until the 1930s; remarkbly because a far safer double deck carriage had long been in use.

 

This was developed in 1864 by the engineer Jean-Baptiste Vidard and used steel solebars with a swan neck curve at each end to enable the floor to be much lower than the buffer-beam.  This allowed the floor of the lower deck to be lowered sufficiently to enable the upper deck to be a cramped but fully enclosed saloon. The Parisians immediately nicknamed these coaches Bidels likeniing them to the animal carrying wagons of a well known travelling menagerie of the time.

They were initially built for the Est but were adopted by the CF du Médoc for suburban services into Bordeaux, by the Ouest, Nord and Ceinture for their Paris suburban services, by railways in Alsace, Luxembourg, Belgium and Italy and by several smaller railways in France.

1075360748_7BidelCFCeintureBidel.jpg.5182dd4af1e72c9120093febe68a20b3.jpg

The last of these four wheel voitures a impériale ran on the short by very steep Enghien-Montmorency line in the northern suburbs of Paris until it closed in 1954 but, in 1933, the Etat  built fifty of a new type of double deck impériale to replace the now elderly four wheel types on the busy suburban routes out of Paris-St. Lazare. These were full lengh bogie coaches that set the pattern for most modern double deckers, both suburban and TGVs,  with vestibule compartments at normal height over the bogies at each end from where steps led to the upper and lower decks. They were finally replaced by SNCF's modern VB2N (Voiture Banlieue Deux Niveaux) stock in 1982

 

Among the smaller French railways that also used early Impériales, the standard gauge C.F. du Caen a la Mer in Normandy had a version with an open-sided upper deck;  however, with no overbridges, this was high enough to include a central walkway safely under the canopy.

In 1880 The Etat also built a remarkable pair of double deck steam railcars. These were converted from Systéme Vidard  coaches and included  three classes of accomodation, a postal compartment and a baggage/guard's compartment all in a single vehicle. They were not a success and I've not been able to find a single photo.

 

Though modern double deckers are usually built to create greater capacity for a particular length of train, an upper deck also provided a greater increase in capacity  than the increase in their tare weight. The early four wheel impériales were therefore as much or more about increasing the number of passengers that the contemporary less powerful locos could haul.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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1 hour ago, Mac said:

 

Can anyone recall the name of the French modeller who was a friend of Mike Sharman?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to get details about the early (1850s-60s) double-decker/imperial's

which ran on French railways.

 

Assuming that you mean a modeller of French railways rather than a modeller who is French, I wonder if it might have been Richard Chown.

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On 22/12/2019 at 17:00, Northroader said:

The drawing in the Wikipedia  for an all third class version of the coach with five "compartments" on the lower deck (actually an undivided space though I think the benches ran the full width of the coach)

I'm pretty sure that the older voiture à impériale at Mulhouse was the model for the Jouef version with four second class compartments bellow   (I think they were separate compartments though the partitions weren't modelled by Jouef) below and third class above.  Jouef had it in Etat markings rather than Ouest so are presumably dating it to after the C.F. de l'Etat absorbed the Cie. des chemins de fer de l'Ouest  in 1909 though I think the Etat used similar vehicles in the Vendee. The Jouef impériales were accompanied by a fourgon générateur, a guards van fitted with a dynamo to supply electric lighting to the whole train 

Unfortunately, Roland's website isn't generally clickable to get to larger copies of images but I have all those from other contemporary sources and clicking on any of these will enlarge it .

1662092271_6)ImperialeOuestnodimensions.jpg.dd125a7c880d59c1e22a0d9c19768ff4.jpg

This is  also a  second/third (with a Vigie - a brakeman's post- on the left had end of the impériale)  but shorter than the preserved/Jouef example with only four bays on the upper deck. 

1852514840_10)voitureBourniqueVidard.jpg.1d16b735c5b450b461fab986795b82b5.jpg

This is the original Bournique & Vidard "Bidel" complete with end and cross-sectional elevations (Bournique was the coach builder and Vidard the engineer) and it does show Vidard's "swan neck" longerons (solebars) that enabled the floor to be lowered for the lower compartments.

364882649_13)imperialesbidelsatSt.Germain.jpg.a4db723da3461d778ed53dafc576b872.jpg

In this undated image you can see both types of 4 wheel impériales at the l'Ouest's suburban terminus at St.-Germain-en-Laye (originally at the end of an uphill mile or so of atmospheric railway)  and the end profile of the enclosed Bidels has been simplified from the original version.

1238970273_11)MONTMORENCY_1951ccClaudeShoshany.jpg.ad22f5c9300e8cb664ae13eec789fbc4.jpg

This well known image shows the last of the 4 wheel Bidels at Montmorency in the line's final couple of years. This short private branch in the northern Paris suburbs was very steeply graded so the loco was always at the down hill end.

This very compact terminus would be a good subject for a model but  don't know if anyone ever has.

 

The term impériale came from the days of diligences -stage coaches- and was used for double deck buses, trams and railway coaches. It was used in official drawings and documents so wasn't simply slang but I've not yet been able trace its actual etymology .

 

1997376310_Etatvoitureautomotriceavapeur1879DT.jpg.11cd7ce3feee8a0f70e260ff67a4fa2a.jpg

 

1888563137_RevueGeneralsideintwip3.jpg.db5375f0c737c23c87dc79a09debe0dc.jpg

Finally,  I only have drawings of the Etat's double deck steam railcar which was essentially a fairly normal Vidard voiture à impériale shortened at one end with most of a tram loco added. The baggage/guard's compartment was the full height of the vehicle (to give the then compulsory separation betweeen passengers and locomotive) so I suspect that, in reality, the barred windows at that end didn't actually exist.   French postal regulations required mail in transit to be accompanied so the coupé compartment between the first and second class compartments was reserved for the facteur and his bags but provided another row of second class seats at other times. 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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I've done the steam railcar  3D printed

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/passenger-stock-france/3d_printed-french-steam-railmotors.htm

I am temptrd by the coaches as well.

 

This might be of interest but probably repeats some of above

https://www.petiteceinture.org/Le-materiel-remorque-du-service-metropolitain.html

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41 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I've done the steam railcar  3D printed

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/passenger-stock-france/3d_printed-french-steam-railmotors.htm

I am temptrd by the coaches as well.

 

This might be of interest but probably repeats some of above

https://www.petiteceinture.org/Le-materiel-remorque-du-service-metropolitain.html

Hi Simon

Well done. As I said, I'm very doubtful about the first set of windows on what would be the upper deck if it wasn't the upper part of the baggage compartment but the truth of that is probaby lost to history. If they did exist they probably wouldn't have had a III class marking at that end.

The drawings appear from a couple of sources including the contemporary  Revue Generale des Chemins de Fer. I assume they originate from some kind of works drawing but may have been "interpeted" . I have a couple of others that show more of the inards of the locomotive section but, though my searches have  so far proved fruitless,  I can't believe that there isn't a photo of the thing in existence somewhere.

 

The Petite Ceinture article is interesting as the Bidels used there have the same chassis arrangement as the Etat automotrice vapeur which is a bit more sophisticated than the  earlier design.

 

I think there would be a significant market for the coaches. The Bidels in particular were quite widely used  and, apart from the handful at Montmorency, survived on the Vincennes line out of Paris Bastille until they were replaced by  ex DR "Bastilles" a few years after the war.

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Thanks to everyone for the information they provided. I was pleasantly surprised at the number of people who replied.

 

The name of the person I was looking for is (I think), Roland Arzul.  I recall seeing his carriage drawings and his contribution to the book on

'Railways of the Baie De Somme' ... though wether he's a railway modeller, I'm not sure.

 

Once again, thanks for all your help.

 

 

FireShot Capture 216 - D796266F-EA20-4A69-B3F2-3C0D10C36B49.jpeg.e4e83c0c01dfca7f1c8f9bf766a_ - www.rmweb.co.uk.jpg

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  • 2 months later...
On 26/12/2019 at 12:59, Mac said:

Thanks to everyone for the information they provided. I was pleasantly surprised at the number of people who replied.

 

The name of the person I was looking for is (I think), Roland Arzul.  I recall seeing his carriage drawings and his contribution to the book on

'Railways of the Baie De Somme' ... though wether he's a railway modeller, I'm not sure.

 

Once again, thanks for all your help.

 

 

 

Hi Mac

Roland Arzul is most definitely a railway modeller and a very good one. I believe that he's a member of the Dieppe based Model Railway Club Littorail 76 and was behind the De Paris à La Mer project which is a super modular set up connecting his model of Paris-Montparnasse between 1900-1930 with someone else's model of Cherbourg Gare Maritime (the original one not the giant transatlantic  terminal)  via various other people's  contributions. I saw the results thus far at TrainsMania three years ago and they were impressive. http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31785&hilit=manche+ocean

Roland is also repsonsible for the Manche-Ocean website

http://roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.htm

dedicated to the former Ouest and Etat railways and named after a train that ran between Dieppe Maritme and Bordeaux  between 1929 and 1939 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

I discovered your post while checking some informations on the web.

Modelers will find a small description of our layout "paris à la mer" on this small movie:

Trainsmania 2017 Lille. 

 

In 2013, I wrote with some friends an article about french double deck carriages for the magazine "Rails d'Autrefois". This magazine is published by Cercle Historique du Rail Français society. This sample "Hors série n°2" is specialy dedicated to double deck carriages of pre - SNCF railways (eg Nord, Ouest, Etat, and some standard gauge private railways such as Caen à la mer, ..)

 

 

arton736-378e2.jpg.782c30e676f49b447e57337dcabde893.jpg

 

This society send two or three magazines to the members.

It might be possible that your can stil purchase an available magazine 

link to Rails d'autrefois

 

Nevertheless, the situation is complex today in France.

So if you have a special request let me know and I will do my best to answer

 

I might also update my web page with additionnal informations.

 

regards

roland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by manche ocean
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Hi Pete,

 

I don't know this film serial. According to wikipedia, there are 10 episodes. 

do you know where to find the ones with trains and if they are available ?

 

I give you a link below with a very short movie:  l'arrivée du train en gare d'Asnières

You will see a guy trying to move on the double deck. not really safe.. 

 

I forgot to mention for modelers that have an interest in french railways that in addition to the Jouef model, a french craftsman has produced  some typical suburbian carriages of the western railways. (or transkit for the Jouef model)

link to BCF Modeles

i am not sure if these models are still available.

 

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It's a while since I watched it, so I can't remember which episodes are the ones with railway footage. A lot of the serial is on Youtube though, including this slightly hair raising clip.

 

 

None of this nonsense with stunt doubles in 1915.

 

It's well worth a watch, although i appreciate that silent films are a bit of an acquired taste. 

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As planned, I started to update some pages related to double deck carriages:

 

Paris Versailles Rive Gauche, I added some drawings of former carriages of this railway that used to operate from  the primitive Embacadère du Maine (previous station before Montparnasse)

 

Paris à Saint Germain: I checked that the former double deck carriages are correctly described.

 

 

some of you mentionned that the drawings of the web site are low quality. this is true. the main reason is that my web site is limited to 100mo, so I need to adjust the picture definition. 

 

I did not have the time to look at the serial "les vampires" yet but will let you informed if I find something. 

 

 

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Hi Roland

The diagrams of the Paris-Versailes RG "impériales" are fascinating. I've never seen them before. Not having even a ladder to reach the roof seats seems extraordinary though I suppose people at that time were used to scrambling onto the upper seats of diligences.  Presumably there were step irons in the carriage ends as there would be for brakemen.

Thanks for  l'arrivée du train en gare d'Asnières it is fascinating and "Not really safe" is putting it mildly. While researching an article ablut the old Bastille terminus I found several newspaper reports in the BNF of accidents, some fatal, to passengers falling off the roof while trying to embark or disembark. I didn't find as many as I'd expected of people being struck by obstructions while trying to move  when the train was at speed.

 

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HI,

 

Regarding the access to the upper level of these Paris Versailles RG, I do not see any step iron in the carriage ends. It seems - for the 1/2 class carriage -  that such step irons were fixed on the faces of the 2nd class compartment, not sure. I will try to check this point.

Also I wonder why these seats on the first class where used for. I am not sure that brake was available at the early days, but may be the first class carriages needed some seats for the servants ?? 

 

These opened carriages where very dangerous, not so much while embarking/desembarking, but when approaching bridges and tunnels (especially on sundays when exited passengers coming from the french guinguettes were going back home with the trains de plaisirs. At this ancient time, the conclusion of the accident was probably "he did not take care". 

 

May be the number of accidents of the eastern railway leaving Bastille station was lower. The Est introduced the closed carriage very early (Bidel) while the Ouest who had a huge number of open cars, only introduced a very limited number of closed cars (110 units) around 1895-1898. 

 

I recently found that a bridge, not far from Paris St Lazare station, was nicknamed la Guillotine. It had to be rebuilt in order to give more space between the bridge piers and the carriages.

Looking outside was not a good idea !

 

 

roland

 

 

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