New 10ft X 5ft Layout, Inspiration and DCC or not to DCC?

[Delorean1984]

On 16/01/2020 at 15:22, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Enthusiasm drops steadily as you build the layout until you run a train for the first time. This will be a major boost for both you & your daughter, so it needs to be quick & easy to build.

Another disadvantage with a more complex layout is you will learn from it. You will form a different option for what you like & dislike, what you have done well & not so well. A big layout will probably leave you wanting to re-do the first bits again. A small one allows you to re-start it & you'll be happy to do so because you'll have the confidence of having done it before.

 

I have checked your plans & I think they are all too complicated. The first one has a reverse loop, which would make me avoid it. A double track line with a station & maybe a few sidings around the other side is what I would start with. Then you can decide if you want to add some buildings or more sidings elsewhere.

 

I still don't know what to advise re DCvDCC, but for the latter your daughter will need to read numbers. If she can't then teaching her this may be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view.

Thank you for the advice, ah it's a shame that these possibly are all bit complicated. Is there anyway in simplifying them? Any links to a track plan showing what you described with your suggestion? Just a double track loop with some sidings and station?

 

Yeah get what you mean about getting the layout built. Plan was to get layout board done and get something laid down roughly and see if it works and the adjust it until it works.

 

Our of all the plans I have posted above, the sea and town one takes my fancy the most, is there a way to simplify it? What makes this one complex for a newbie like me?

[Delorean1984]

On 16/01/2020 at 15:22, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Enthusiasm drops steadily as you build the layout until you run a train for the first time. This will be a major boost for both you & your daughter, so it needs to be quick & easy to build.

Another disadvantage with a more complex layout is you will learn from it. You will form a different option for what you like & dislike, what you have done well & not so well. A big layout will probably leave you wanting to re-do the first bits again. A small one allows you to re-start it & you'll be happy to do so because you'll have the confidence of having done it before.

 

I have checked your plans & I think they are all too complicated. The first one has a reverse loop, which would make me avoid it. A double track line with a station & maybe a few sidings around the other side is what I would start with. Then you can decide if you want to add some buildings or more sidings elsewhere.

 

I still don't know what to advise re DCvDCC, but for the latter your daughter will need to read numbers. If she can't then teaching her this may be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view.

Ah see what you mean by reverse loop, didn't see that, I suppose I could remove that and simplify it somehow.

[Delorean1984]

9 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

Thank you for the advice, ah it's a shame that these possibly are all bit complicated. Is there anyway in simplifying them? Any links to a track plan showing what you described with your suggestion? Just a double track loop with some sidings and station?

 

Yeah get what you mean about getting the layout built. Plan was to get layout board done and get something laid down roughly and see if it works and the adjust it until it works.

 

Our of all the plans I have posted above, the sea and town one takes my fancy the most, is there a way to simplify it? What makes this one complex for a newbie like me?

Is this something you mean?

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/0103-Double-Oval.php

 

Does feel a bit simple and don't want to build this and then build another after.

 

Am I best maybe putting this down on the board when I get that built then adjust add and remove until I'm happy?

[Harlequin]

Hi Delorean,

 

The sea and town plan doesn’t make good use of the space IMHO. If you’ve got a 10 by 5 space it would be better to fill it with a rectangular layout with a simple rectangular operating well in the middle. Notice also that the sea and town plan has a triangle in the trackwork which needs special handling, electrically.

 

Interestingly that plan doesn’t have a fiddle yard and if you don’t want one then it might make it slightly easier to fit what you want into the space.

 

If you want a double track circuit, a through station and a little quayside scene tucked away somewhere I’m sure that could all be accommodated. But note that a quayside really means the water level needs to be well below rail level to make sense. It can be done - just needs planning.

 

Edit: Possible simple baseboard plan:

• All boards are 5ft long with varying widths
• 2ft6in wide operating well
• The red outlined bit just carries double track to complete the circuits - could be a duck-under or all or partially removable.
• No room for fiddle yard, though...

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Harlequin

[Delorean1984]

On 18/01/2020 at 20:37, Harlequin said:

Hi Delorean,

 

The sea and town plan doesn’t make good use of the space IMHO. If you’ve got a 10 by 5 space it would be better to fill it with a rectangular layout with a simple rectangular operating well in the middle. Notice also that the sea and town plan has a triangle in the trackwork which needs special handling, electrically.

 

Interestingly that plan doesn’t have a fiddle yard and if you don’t want one then it might make it slightly easier to fit what you want into the space.

 

If you want a double track circuit, a through station and a little quayside scene tucked away somewhere I’m sure that could all be accommodated. But note that a quayside really means the water level needs to be well below rail level to make sense. It can be done - just needs planning.

 

Edit: Possible simple baseboard plan:

• All boards are 5ft long with varying widths
• 2ft6in wide operating well
• The red outlined bit just carries double track to complete the circuits - could be a duck-under or all or partially removable.
• No room for fiddle yard, though...

 

 

Thank you for your help on this one. I'm definitely gonna have to think carefully about this but your plan has given me an idea. Just quick question but is the thin bit with duck under idea be the back of the layout or the front? What would you recommend. Basically this board would be tucked up to a wall on the backside with plenty of space at the front as it's gonna be in a garage. I suppose it makes sense for the duck under to he at the back of the layout and closest to the wall? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Delorean1984]

On 18/01/2020 at 20:37, Harlequin said:

Hi Delorean,

 

The sea and town plan doesn’t make good use of the space IMHO. If you’ve got a 10 by 5 space it would be better to fill it with a rectangular layout with a simple rectangular operating well in the middle. Notice also that the sea and town plan has a triangle in the trackwork which needs special handling, electrically.

 

Interestingly that plan doesn’t have a fiddle yard and if you don’t want one then it might make it slightly easier to fit what you want into the space.

 

If you want a double track circuit, a through station and a little quayside scene tucked away somewhere I’m sure that could all be accommodated. But note that a quayside really means the water level needs to be well below rail level to make sense. It can be done - just needs planning.

 

Edit: Possible simple baseboard plan:

• All boards are 5ft long with varying widths
• 2ft6in wide operating well
• The red outlined bit just carries double track to complete the circuits - could be a duck-under or all or partially removable.
• No room for fiddle yard, though...

 

 

Just thought of a good use of the that thin red part that might be good, a viaduct or tunnel perhaps.

 

You mentioned that no room for fiddle yard, I suppose I could fit some sidings somewhere?

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, Delorean1984 said:

Thank you for your help on this one. I'm definitely gonna have to think carefully about this but your plan has given me an idea. Just quick question but is the thin bit with duck under idea be the back of the layout or the front? What would you recommend. Basically this board would be tucked up to a wall on the backside with plenty of space at the front as it's gonna be in a garage. I suppose it makes sense for the duck under to he at the back of the layout and closest to the wall? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The wall would be at the top. The thin bit, the duck-under, allows you to get into the operating well from the open room more easily than crawling under a wide baseboard. (So, not a good place for a viaduct!)

 

3 hours ago, Delorean1984 said:

Just thought of a good use of the that thin red part that might be good, a viaduct or tunnel perhaps.

 

You mentioned that no room for fiddle yard, I suppose I could fit some sidings somewhere?

Sure! You don't have to have a non-scenic FY. Just make some sidings or loops in the model easy to get at.

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Harlequin

[Delorean1984]

33 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The wall would be at the top. The thin bit, the duck-under, allows you to get into the operating well from the open room more easily than crawling under a wide baseboard. (So, not a good place for a viaduct!)

 

Sure! You don't have to have have a non-scenic FY. Just make some sidings or loops in the model easy to get at.

 

Yes very good point, didn't think of that.

 

I'll get my notepad out and start sketching few ideas down or download program and design something.

 

Do you think there is any chance of getting a tiny FY in somewhere? The town and sea theme was one idea but do have another theme of doing like ECML style layout from the 90s/modern day so a yard might be in keeping with this theme although with it being my first layout I just want to enjoy it rather than get too bogged down with theme accuracy at moment, that could be something I do as I get more confident and comfortable building the layout.

[JimFin]

7 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

I'll get my notepad out and start sketching few ideas down or download program and design something.

 

 

Try https://www.anyrail.com/en/download - for the size you are planning, the free version would be enough.

[Zomboid]

17 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

Do you think there is any chance of getting a tiny FY in somewhere

I'd suggest you either commit to it and find space for a reasonably large one, or don't bother having one at all. An insufficiently sized one will only lead to frustration, and you could have a fun layout without.

[Harlequin]

32 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

Yes very good point, didn't think of that.

 

I'll get my notepad out and start sketching few ideas down or download program and design something.

 

Do you think there is any chance of getting a tiny FY in somewhere? The town and sea theme was one idea but do have another theme of doing like ECML style layout from the 90s/modern day so a yard might be in keeping with this theme although with it being my first layout I just want to enjoy it rather than get too bogged down with theme accuracy at moment, that could be something I do as I get more confident and comfortable building the layout.

If you made the red section, the duck under, 50-75mm wider you would have room for two passing loops beside the double track circuits and they would make running a bit more flexible and serve as a kind of fiddle yard. That would not impinge too much on the operating well if done right.

 

BTW: On the DC / DDC question: Your daughter will probably find all things digital just a natural part of life and be programming CVs before you even realise!

 

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I'd suggest you either commit to it and find space for a reasonably large one, or don't bother having one at all. An insufficiently sized one will only lead to frustration, and you could have a fun layout without.

 

The East Coast plan you linked above has a tmd, a freight yard and potentially a set of carriage sidings too, as well as a bay for a DMU to hide in. A layout set up like this doesn't need a fiddle yard as you can start and terminate trains and swap engines all day completely within the context of the layout.

[Delorean1984]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

If you made the red section, the duck under, 50-75mm wider you would have room for two passing loops beside the double track circuits and they would make running a bit more flexible and serve as a kind of fiddle yard. That would not impinge too much on the operating well if done right.

 

BTW: On the DC / DDC question: Your daughter will probably find all things digital just a natural part of life and be programming CVs before you even realise!

 

Yes your correct, I've decided that I should definitely go DCC if I'm starting out so gonna go that route. Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look into that. It's got me thinking whether that ECML layout I posted earlier can be shoehorned into this space, that would be more than plenty for me. It's on a 6x6 plan but rotated round, do you think it could fit? Probably have to move the operating well into the middle more. Gonna sketch a few ideas but I feel I'm getting somewhere with ideas now.

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I'd suggest you either commit to it and find space for a reasonably large one, or don't bother having one at all. An insufficiently sized one will only lead to frustration, and you could have a fun layout without.

Yes very true, just see if I can plan one, if not I'll not bother.

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The East Coast plan you linked above has a tmd, a freight yard and potentially a set of carriage sidings too, as well as a bay for a DMU to hide in. A layout set up like this doesn't need a fiddle yard as you can start and terminate trains and swap engines all day completely within the context of the layout.

Yeah I do like the look of that layout, has everything I'd want. Only problem is if it will fit on my 10x5 with that layout being 6x6, what do you think?

[Zomboid]

The "East coast" layout can definitely be stretched and squashed in various directions, including some that will fit in your space. It'll probably be better for it, too.

[Delorean1984]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The "East coast" layout can definitely be stretched and squashed in various directions, including some that will fit in your space. It'll probably be better for it, too.

Awesome, that's good to hear. I'll try and give it a go to see if it fits it as I think this layout gives me good starting point to build from and gives me exactly what I want too.

[Zomboid]

I'd suggest you start by rotating it 45* so you can make use of the long sides for the station & sidings.

[Junctionmad]

It should be stated again. There is best practice and there is basic functionality 

 

DCC will work with a couple of wires to the track , electrofrogs will work straight out of the box etc 

 

my friend has a 16 x 8 OO complex layout on three levels. All run on DCC , with a few feeds to the track. 
 

best practice ,no , works , yes  

[Delorean1984]

On 21/01/2020 at 10:44, Harlequin said:

If you made the red section, the duck under, 50-75mm wider you would have room for two passing loops beside the double track circuits and they would make running a bit more flexible and serve as a kind of fiddle yard. That would not impinge too much on the operating well if done right.

 

BTW: On the DC / DDC question: Your daughter will probably find all things digital just a natural part of life and be programming CVs before you even realise!

 

Right I'm going to go with the east coast layout. Unfortunately I'm that plan on the website it doesn't tell me what size track and curves etc.

 

Is it best to plan it in a program as close as possible and adjust accordingly to the size layout I got or just print it off and buy the track I I think I need then plan it on the layout board just moving the track around until happy.

 

I use a Mac so limited to what software if any I can use.

[Zomboid]

The parts list for the published plan won't help much since it's for a different space to what you have. It'll want redrawing to fit your space and then you can work out what to buy.

[Harlequin]

Ideally: Plan, Design baseboards to fit plan, Build baseboards, Buy track.

 

There is Mac-specific track planning software. It popped up on here recently but I can't remember where.

 

If you can't find it or don't want to use it, the next alternatives are: online track planning, installing a Windows VM and running one of the Windows programs, using a drawing program, using pencil and paper, planning it full size on the floor using paper templates.

 

I use a drawng program (on Windows). It does take a bit lot more work than dedicated software but the end results are better, IMHO.

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Harlequin

[Junctionmad]

I actually cannot understand in this day and age with the computer tools available, why anyone wouldn’t plan out in detail in advance a complete layout. Confirm minimum radii , point position , space for point motors and then design the baseboard etc. All before touching a piece of real track. 
 

there are several track design applications that will do this for you 

 

for the Mac you have RailModdellerPro which is excellent 

 

why anyone buys track to plan or uses paper templates is beyond me at this stage