“BEYOND DOVER”

[Northroader]

FRANCE - CHEMIN DE FER DU NORD

 

It strikes me that I shouldn’t really be wheeling out NORD wagons without a friendly nod to the NORD itself. For most Brits stepping off the gangplank at Calais Maritime, it was the first bit of the Continent you encountered, and fair play, it did try hard to live up to that. Mind, by the time I saw it, it had been nationalised for around twenty years. Interesting thought, if the Big Four had been nationalised in 1938 instead of 1948, would they have such a following now? (The last ten years were fun, with Bulleid, Hawksworth, Ivatt, and Thompson all appearing) 

Anyway, it had a lot of real character, for me the main line South was memorable, with the variety of scenery and the places on the way. It took longer than the present whizz out of the Tunnel and past Lille, but much more interesting.

 

 

There’s a site on Forum LR presse, dedicated to the line, “un Peu du Nord” which is a good source of illustrations to get a flavour:

https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19958

 

Their top main line passenger engine in the nineteenth century is one with an interesting story, starting with Archibald Sturrock, an Englishman who had worked with Gooch at Swindon in early broad gauge days, and then took up with the GNR as their loco superintendent. He was known to the NORD, having visited them to view the performance of their early Cramptons. He came home, but ordered some unsuccessful ones, with the intermediate drive shaft. These needed rebuilding, and he returned to more conventional designs, although his broad gauge experience meant he was not afraid to give them generous proportions, culminating in a standard gauge version of the 8’ 4-2-2, unfortunately with too rigid a wheelbase. This was followed in 1860 by a small class of large 2-2-2, with inside cylinders and outside frames, and the NORD had a single copy of these, as by now they were finding the Cramptons were limited in load hauling needs. Sturrock then switched to a class of very similar 2-4-0s in 1866, and these formed the basis of a NORD class, quite British in not being a long boiler type, with inside cylinders and outside frames. The first batch appeared in 1870 as 2-4–0, but later batches were given a leading bogie, then a radial axle, and in time the 2-4-0s were rebuilt with bogies, and when boiler replacement was needed they had Belpaire fireboxes. A total of 103 were made. They handled all the mainline trains until displaced by compounds in the 1900s, being very popular, nicknamed “Outrance”, being capable of working to the “utmost”, and as such forming a leading French design.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

Something a bit Dean/Churchward struggling to get out there! Must be the residual Swindon influence...

 

What does that Beyer-Peacockesque splasher maker's plate say?

[Northroader]

I think it could be halfway to becoming an Atbara, this batch were the first in France to have a bogie, by the way. I think the inscription round the splasher would be the same as on this works plate, strung out.

Edit: got it! (It was on page 18 of the wonderland you get to if you fall down the enticing rabbit hole that I dug in the middle of my last post)

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Northroader

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

It strikes me that I shouldn’t really be wheeling out NORD wagons without a friendly nod to the NORD itself. For most Brits stepping off the gangplank at Calais Maritime, it was the first bit of the Continent you encountered, and fair play, it did try hard to live up to that. Mind, by the time I saw it, it had been nationalised for around twenty years. Interesting thought, if the Big Four had been nationalised in 1938 instead of 1948, would they have such a following now?

 

Not really a fair comparison since the major French companies had their roots back to the 1860s and so had a 70 year history.

And yes someone is going to tell me that is an over-simplification.  The Ouest went bust and was nationalised into the Etat.

Yes the Est got split into the Est and the Elzass Loethringen (Alsace Lorraine) 

and yes the Midi and PO did form a joint company (à la SER and LCDR) in the 1930s.  

[Northroader]

True enough, the main companies did seem to form early on and keep their individuality for long lives, apart from the upsets you quote.

[Northroader]

 

edit: just to wrap up on NORD vans, here’s a makers photograph. You’ll note this has a sidelever handbrake acting on one wheel. It doesn’t have the drop down shutters on the sides, like most of the other lines, so wouldn’t be used for cattle transport, dedicated vans would be needed as per the drawing detail. One other thing, the AnD sides and the photo have the diagonals sloping in over, and my drawing has them sloping out over, so I’ve goofed with that.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

The line map says 'read upwards'. Very appropriate. One would never want to go back from Paris 

[Northroader]

If you’re going back from Paris, they know you’re heading for colder climes, and need to wrap up.

 

 

conversely, if you cross over to Lyon, they know you’re going south, and there’s less need to dress up.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

And going south for another two vans, from the MIDI.

 

These are from an AnD set of layers, and with this set there are enough layers that with some padding up you can get two van bodies for the price of one. Then I ring the changes with adding a brakemans perch to one (much airier than Northern line versions) and some shutters down on the other.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

Are those Ellis grease axleboxes?

[Northroader]

Sshhhh..

[Mikkel]

I was searching Getty images yesterday and came across this. Caption says 'Marseille late 1850s (?)'. Somehow it looks a bit too organized for that date?

 

Source: Getty images, embedding permitted.

 

(edit: In Chrome, image can be right clicked and opened as separate page, whereby the original much larger photo can be studied. Doesn't seem to work in IE/Edge.)

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Mikkel

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that you are right to query that date. Looks more c 1900 - 1910.

[Pacific231G]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I was searching Getty images yesterday and came across this. Caption says 'Marseille late 1850s (?)'. Somehow it looks a bit too organized for that date?

 

Source: Getty images, embedding permitted.

 

(edit: In Chrome, image can be right clicked and opened as separate page, whereby the original much larger photo can be studied. Doesn't seem to work in IE/Edge.)

 

Hi Mikkel

Interesting.

The design of the wagons, especially the coal tombereaux in the foreground, looks fairly early and apart from the couvert behind them and another peeping out from behind the goods shed they all appear to have dumb buffers which suggests the same and one of the coal wagons has a fairly primitive looking lever brake.

However, the PLM wasn't formed (by an amalgamation) until 1857 so I wonder how long it would have taken for th wagons to be relettered PLM. On the left hand tombereau, the lettering is fairly well worn and I'm not sure whether it says P-L-M or simply LM  (the Chemin de fer de Lyon à la Méditerranée)  

Other clues are the presence of what look like gas lamps on both loading docks and the lack of telegraph/telephone poles. There are two curious looking masts on the skyline but I don't think they look like telegraphs amd may be construction cranes of some sort or either pile drivers or well sinking rigs.

 

The other evidence is the photograph itself. There are no people or non-railway vehicles visible apart from a two wheel cart  on the rear loading dock . That could simply mean it was taken on a very quiet Sunday morning but note that the rolling gate (another clue?) to the yard is open so it might mean it was a daguerrotype requiring a very long exposure time in which moving objects simply disappear. I've seen plenty of photos of French stations from the 1880s onwards taken with exposures short enough for people to be very clear so might that place this one between say 1860 and 1880?

I think that the wagon designs and the PLM's numbering system for them might provide the best additional evidence to their age and several of the wagon numbers are readable.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Andy Hayter]

I have been able to enlarge the picture in Edge.

 

Two wagon numbers can be read

S 30090  and 21166

 

Wiki PLM indicates that S 30065 - 30600 were transformed from earlier wagons between 1885 and 1906.  So we can put the earliest date for this as 1885.  

 

21166 (S 21166) was constructed in 1857.

 

The fact that the latter does not show the more modern "S" nomenclature, but the first has been transformed and does show it suggests that perhaps the date is closer to 1885 than 1906.

 

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=S_20_951_à_21_352

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=S_30_001_à_30_601_de_1860

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=S_30_065_à_30_600_de_1885-1906

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Wiki PLM

 

Brilliant website - thanks. I've just been gorging on 2-4-2s!

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I have been able to enlarge the picture in Edge.

 

Two wagon numbers can be read

S 30090  and 21166

 

Wiki PLM indicates that S 30065 - 30600 were transformed from earlier wagons between 1885 and 1906.  So we can put the earliest date for this as 1885.  

 

21166 (S 21166) was constructed in 1857.

 

The fact that the latter does not show the more modern "S" nomenclature, but the first has been transformed and does show it suggests that perhaps the date is closer to 1885 than 1906.

 

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=S_20_951_à_21_352

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=S_30_001_à_30_601_de_1860

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=S_30_065_à_30_600_de_1885-1906

 

 

Very useful website Andy. The only thing I couldn't find was any reference to wagons with dumb buffers as opposed to tampons secs whch I assume means an undamped spring buffer. I can't find any reference to when dumb buffers, which seemed to be on most of the wagons in that yard, ceased to be used.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Brilliant website - thanks. I've just been gorging on 2-4-2s!

 

For anyone with an interest in pre-nationalisation French railways I really have to recommend the parent - Rails d'Autrefois.  for 25€ I get 2 reviews per year on high quality art paper with many drawings and photographs plus an Hors Serie edition.  [It might be a bit more for non-French addresses. Although a check on the website does not seem to suggest there is.] 

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Very useful website Andy. The only thing I couldn't find was any reference to wagons with dumb buffers as opposed to tampons secs whch I assume means an undamped spring buffer. I can't find any reference to when dumb buffers, which seemed to be on most of the wagons in that yard, ceased to be used.

 

 

I cannot immediately help with that question.  My very expanded view of the pictures left me wondering if they were dumb or buffers with a very wide stock compared with the buffer head.   I thought I could see signs of a head that was bogger than the stock - which suggests these were not dumb buffered - but I would not want to bet money on it.  

[Andy Hayter]

I have consulted Les Chemins de Fer PLM - Chaintreau, Cuynet and Mathieu - and that gives no hints.  Looking again at the Getty image I am almost certain that S 30090 is conventionally buffered.  21166 is probably dumb buffered.  I wonder if the rebuild to the S series included fitting conventional sprung buffers.  

[Northroader]

Thanks for the picture, Mikkel, plenty of interest there, and Andy has been able to date it very capably. Looking quite at home are the couvert and tombereau in the middle, and tie in nicely with a couple of drawings I’ve done.

I note in the links to the open in the wikiPLM site that Andy gives that it’s described as Wagon a houille, coal, when I’d be thinking of it as a marchandise, general goods, so presumably every open is regarded as for coal. Agreed the WikiPLM is a lovely resource, I was particularly drawn to the wagon photos, but there looks to be plenty to go at, so thanks for that, Andy.

Back to the Marseilles picture, there’s a couple of ancient wagons hiding behind the van, outside wood frames, offset side door, and the bracing looks clumsy, as if an upright has been left out.

The wagons in the left foreground are an interesting pair, now these are what I would call a coal wagon. They look like dumb buffers, going back to the wiki link, some are described as being rebuilt from “tampons sec” to “tampons a ressorts”, you’re always in trouble translating that, but I’d stick my neck out and say dumb buffers and sprung buffers. The bodies are different, narrow sides tapering out from being flush with the solebar, and supported by substantial uprights, like a NER hopper wagon, but not a hopper. Instead, there’s an end door at each end, like a Caledonian wagon. It looks like the doors are suspended from a transverse bar placed above, which is supported on an elegant curved strap, running up away from the end of the side planks, where there’s some “meat” for the strap bolts. There’s also a central transverse support for the sides, and a sidelever handbrake, so all in all quite a different wagon. The furthest one has what looks like a “T xxxxx” number, which I can’t relate to the ones in the WikiPLM files. We know the PLM imported loco coal through Marseilles from South Wales, but one wagon is full and one is empty, suggesting something is happening locally, but end discharge?

The other goods traffic is all those bales, some sheeted over in a large heap. The only other bales I’ve seen in old photos like that are in L&Y photos, where they’re either cotton or wool going to textile mills. So yes, a great photo, plenty happening to excite your curiosity, The timing of it is good, for I was getting ready to push another goods wagon model through, a PLM lowside.

You’ll see it’s a medium grey, and the PLM did do lettering in white shaded black, most of the grandes lignes did plain white letters. I must cultivate the habit of trimming the “ears” off the axleboxes when I’m using spare axleboxes from Slaters kits. The load here is in sacks, from Skytrex as a unit in cast resin, with a slight gap round the sides to allow for expansion of the resin. Nearly enough information for a small PLM country station goods yard now.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

Many thanks gents, excellent and very informative insights.

 

And yes please Northroader, a PLM goods yard layout would be very welcome!

[Pacific231G]

15 hours ago, Northroader said:

Thanks for the picture, Mikkel, plenty of interest there, and Andy has been able to date it very capably. Looking quite at home are the couvert and tombereau in the middle, and tie in nicely with a couple of drawings I’ve done.

I note in the links to the open in the wikiPLM site that Andy gives that it’s described as Wagon a houille, coal, when I’d be thinking of it as a marchandise, general goods, so presumably every open is regarded as for coal. Agreed the WikiPLM is a lovely resource, I was particularly drawn to the wagon photos, but there looks to be plenty to go at, so thanks for that, Andy.

Back to the Marseilles picture, there’s a couple of ancient wagons hiding behind the van, outside wood frames, offset side door, and the bracing looks clumsy, as if an upright has been left out.

The wagons in the left foreground are an interesting pair, now these are what I would call a coal wagon.

They look like dumb buffers, going back to the wiki link, some are described as being rebuilt from “tampons sec” to “tampons a ressorts”, you’re always in trouble translating that, but I’d stick my neck out and say dumb buffers and sprung buffers. The bodies are different, narrow sides tapering out from being flush with the solebar, and supported by substantial uprights, like a NER hopper wagon, but not a hopper. Instead, there’s an end door at each end, like a Caledonian wagon. It looks like the doors are suspended from a transverse bar placed above, which is supported on an elegant curved strap, running up away from the end of the side planks, where there’s some “meat” for the strap bolts. There’s also a central transverse support for the sides, and a sidelever handbrake, so all in all quite a different wagon. The furthest one has what looks like a “T xxxxx” number, which I can’t relate to the ones in the WikiPLM files. We know the PLM imported loco coal through Marseilles from South Wales, but one wagon is full and one is empty, suggesting something is happening locally, but end discharge?

The other goods traffic is all those bales, some sheeted over in a large heap. The only other bales I’ve seen in old photos like that are in L&Y photos, where they’re either cotton or wool going to textile mills. So yes, a great photo, plenty happening to excite your curiosity, The timing of it is good, for I was getting ready to push another goods wagon model through, a PLM lowside. You’ll see it’s a medium grey, and the PLM did do lettering in white shaded black, most of the grandes lignes did plain white letters. I must cultivate the habit of trimming the “ears” off the axleboxes when I’m using spare axleboxes from Slaters kits. The load here is in sacks, from Skytrex as a unit in cast resin, with a slight gap round the sides to allow for expansion of the resin. Nearly enough information for a small PLM country station goods yard now.

Hi Northroades

I think you're right about the buffers. My Hachette Dictionnaire Encyclopédique, which is usually pretty good on railway terms, wasn't much help but Google transates tampon sec as dry pad and tampon a ressort as spring buffer. I think damped buffers came in much later.

I assume the distinction between coal and coke wagons relates to the height of their sides- coke being much lighter than coal. Normal coal wagons are pretty much just tombereau but coke wagons may be the type they'd also have used for things like straw and hay that French railway seem to have tranported a great deal of. The two coal wagons in the foreground are fascinatingly old fashioned and look a lot like the horse drawn chaldrons used on early mine railways and waggonways including France and continental Europe's first public railway between Saint Étienne and Andrézieux. opened in 1827. That had been proposed in 1820 by two local engineers, Louis de Gallois and Louis-Antoine Beaunier, who'd examined similar early railways in Britain. The long high lever brake  looks far more like a coal chaldron's too and I noticed in the PLM site that a number of wagons were listed as having screw brakes which would be far more suitable for operation by brakesmen riding on wagons.  

 

[Northroader]

Thanks, David, I’ve got the “Le train archives” for each of the main lines, which have plenty of pictures in, but this is the first time I’ve come across dumb buffers, those wagons are different from the run of the mill, as you say.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Thanks, David, I’ve got the “Le train archives” for each of the main lines, which have plenty of pictures in, but this is the first time I’ve come across dumb buffers, those wagons are different from the run of the mill, as you say.

Hi Northroader

There was an explosion of postcard photgraphy in France from around 1900 to WW1 which included large numbers of railway scenes. There were earlier pictures of course but very much fewer so far harder to come by. All this suggest that dumb buffers were still being used in fair quantities up to the turn of the century or a bit before but very little after that except on non public lines and in mines etc.  I think they were probably mainly on wagons built for earlier railways so wouldn't have appeared in drawings of wagons built later for the Grande Compagnies even though they co-existed with them.  I wonder also if there was a regulatory change that banned them from public railways, they must have caused more than a few brakesmen to fall from their perches. I don't know how much work it would have required to replace dumb buffers with spring buffers but it would have involved some cost.  

Edited September 24, 2020 by Pacific231G