Churchward 4700 47XX 2-8-0 war time livery question

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

Can someone tell me if Churchward 4700 2-8-0s were ever painted war-time black please?

 

And if there are any books with definitive info on the class?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Rob

[jim.snowdon]

4 minutes ago, robmcg said:

Hi All,

 

Can someone tell me if Churchward 4700 2-8-0s were ever painted war-time black please?

 

And if there are any books with definitive info on the class?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Rob

Very probably, on the grounds that at least some of the team members of the class would have had an overhaul during the later wartime period. Which one(s) would have depended entirely on condition.

 

Jim

[robmcg]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Very probably, on the grounds that at least some of the team members of the class would have had an overhaul during the later wartime period. Which one(s) would have depended entirely on condition.

 

Jim

 

Thanks Jim, I have been looking through various books for photographic evidence and there are a couple taken in May 1945 in Maurice Earley's 'Truly the Great Western' in b+w of course which look very much like plain black...  or running grime'black' at least.  Still looking for more info.

 

Cheers,

[The Johnster]

Austerity livery, unlined black if applied to a 47xx, was applied between 1942 and VE day in May 45.  So it is possible that, with such a small class, none received the livery.  You would need to identify a loco outshopped after overhaul during this period.  

 

[Wickham Green]

........ and it might have needed to be a significant overhaul to get a full repaint.

[jim.snowdon]

It's all largely a matter of chance (and usage). 

 

Jim

[robmcg]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Austerity livery, unlined black if applied to a 47xx, was applied between 1942 and VE day in May 45.  So it is possible that, with such a small class, none received the livery.  You would need to identify a loco outshopped after overhaul during this period.  

 

 

The b+w photos I have seen of the 4700s in 1945 show no sign of any lettering on tender sides and are very grimy, but overhauls during the war, where might such information be?  The grime could be over either unlined green or black.

 

Still looking through various GWR books for a chapter or informative captions re 4700 wartime use, is there no register of such work in print?

[robmcg]

19 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Very probably, on the grounds that at least some of the team members of the class would have had an overhaul during the later wartime period. Which one(s) would have depended entirely on condition.

 

Jim

 

'Very probably' with Stationmaster's endorsement is a strong bit of evidence, but the red LMS  Duchesses 6230-4 went through without painting did they not?

[The Johnster]

54 minutes ago, robmcg said:

 

The b+w photos I have seen of the 4700s in 1945 show no sign of any lettering on tender sides and are very grimy, but overhauls during the war, where might such information be?  The grime could be over either unlined green or black.

 

Still looking through various GWR books for a chapter or informative captions re 4700 wartime use, is there no register of such work in print?

I don’t know, but presumably Swindon Works’ records are archived somewhere.  NRM?

 

The LMS locos were new in 1939, and thus survived the war without a repaint.  The Austerity liveries were to save on limited supply paints or colours needed for military use; inconspicuous colours to assist in concealing locos from enemy aircraft were a secondary concern.  Steam, white against the dark background of the ground, was a dead giveaway

 to hostile aircraft, making trains vulnerable whatever the livery. 

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

'Very probably' with Stationmaster's endorsement is a strong bit of evidence, but the red LMS  Duchesses 6230-4 went through without painting did they not?

Ultimately, it depends on whether you want to model a particular day in the life of the railway, or that which was entirely plausible. Both are, in their own way, equally accurate.

 

Jim

[robmcg]

5 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Ultimately, it depends on whether you want to model a particular day in the life of the railway, or that which was entirely plausible. Both are, in their own way, equally accurate.

 

Jim

 

Indeed, Jim, and having looked at dozens of photos of every era both in books and o line there were many times when lettering and insignia were not visible, so it would be safe to assume that British Grime in its many forms would look realistic, even for some pre-natonalisation engines, but more the wartime and post-war era.

 

I have enjoyed painting weathered engines before and may well do so again. I'd like to show some examples of the GWR and BR  4700s in extreme grime but not sure about copyright for many available on the web.  I might try one or two with appropriate captioning.

 

I still haven't seen a clearly black wartime photo, but many of course post-1948.

 

 one from smugmug ... although you can see the late crest.... or maybe it's something else given the half-cab engines in the background. 

 

All credit to the photographer, whose name I do not know.

Edited February 7, 2020 by robmcg
addition

[Wickham Green]

12 hours ago, robmcg said:

Still looking through various GWR books for a chapter or informative captions re 4700 wartime use, is there no register of such work in print?

Contemporary Railway Observer might give an idea of shopping dates ........... and the Engine Record Cards might still exist at the P.R.O. National Archive or York ?

[Hroth]

6 hours ago, robmcg said:

although you can see the late crest....

 

You can barely see the cab numberplate!

[The Johnster]

I’d hesitate to say what the mark in the tender is!  We are looking at a BR loco because of the smokebox number plate and lack of buffer beam numbers, but probably pre 1950 because there is no shed code plate.  Pre 1950 is supported by the halfcab panniers; I think the shed might be Southall, facing east, but am not putting any money on it!

 

The mark on the tender could be a BR unicycling lion totem, or the GWR crest from a post war G crest W livery. As has been said, great shot though!

[robmcg]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’d hesitate to say what the mark in the tender is!  We are looking at a BR loco because of the smokebox number plate and lack of buffer beam numbers, but probably pre 1950 because there is no shed code plate.  Pre 1950 is supported by the halfcab panniers; I think the shed might be Southall, facing east, but am not putting any money on it!

 

The mark on the tender could be a BR unicycling lion totem, or the GWR crest from a post war G crest W livery. As has been said, great shot though!

 

Thanks The Johnster, I think the way is clear for a selection of humbrol matt and semi-gloss enamels in various shades, possibly on a lined green version given that the Heljan factory lining was /is shall we say less than realistic.  

 

All to be done by brush, some rust and shiny bits, I used to be quite good at this on Kitmaster models and I daresay they've never been bettered (I even did lining by brush, oh to have the eyes and hands of a teenager again!

 

cheers

 

here a photo-edited BR green version...

 

 

 

I think these models are under-rated.

Edited February 7, 2020 by robmcg