Power supplies for multiple accessories

[SNCF stephen]

I have been modelling for a few years now but I still consider myself a novice, so I hope this question is not ridiculously silly:

 

I am currently looking into adding some lighting to my layouts buildings as well as having some street lighting. I have a controller with an accessory power supply (16v AC) and I currently power a CDU for the turnouts and a Faller water wheel off of this source.

 

My question is do you think I might be asking a bit much of this accessory power supply to use it to control the lights? If so then are there 16v accessory transformers available and can anyone reccommend a good one?

 

I am planning to use the new Hornby range of lighting because of how easy it looks to use. Are there any disadvantages to using this system?

 

Many thanks

Stephen

 

 

[HLT 0109]

Stephen,

 

I am relatively new to model making but I have put lighting into my buildings and installed working street lights. I assume you are using DCC as you mention 16v AC. I decided against using my controller for the lights for two reasons (1) the controller is busy enough coping with the locos and points (anyone using the Elite will know what I mean) and (2) I overheard a someone at an exhibition saying that his lights kept blowing and the reason given was that the voltage from his controller was not sufficiently stable. Perhaps that was a sales pitch but I bought a 12v DC transformer and lights and made up a switch panel (all from Kytes Lights) and have been very pleased with the results. I was warned that the transformer needs 20 bulbs in order to work but mine works with nine. So far I have three sets of nine lights operated by three separate switches. Sorry I cannot answer your technical question about the capability of your controller.

 

Harold.

[Huw Griffiths]

I have been modelling for a few years now but I still consider myself a novice, so I hope this question is not ridiculously silly:

 

I am currently looking into adding some lighting to my layouts buildings as well as having some street lighting. I have a controller with an accessory power supply (16v AC) and I currently power a CDU for the turnouts and a Faller water wheel off of this source.

 

My question is do you think I might be asking a bit much of this accessory power supply to use it to control the lights? If so then are there 16v accessory transformers available and can anyone reccommend a good one?

 

I am planning to use the new Hornby range of lighting because of how easy it looks to use. Are there any disadvantages to using this system?

 

Many thanks

Stephen

There's nothing silly about this question.

 

Actually, I think there are a number of things you might want to think about:

 

• How much current (in Amps) can the controller supply? Here, I'm talking the total figure - it varies between controllers, but you're probably talking somewhere in the region of 1 Amp - similar to the current draw for a number of CDUs. You'd probably be advised to reserve the controller accessory output for the CDU.
• How much current will your motorized accessories draw? From memory, I believe the Faller motors draw something like 60mA (or 0.06A) - so (in theory) you could run 16 of them off a 1A accessory output. If you end up with a number of motorized accessories on your layout, you can work out the current draw by adding together the currents. It's a simple matter to add a switch in series with each accessory - although you probably won't want all of them switched on at the same time, you need to allow for it.
• Now we come to the lights. Again, you need to add up the currents from all the bulbs - they'll soon mount up.
• You'll need separate supply outputs for (1) the CDU, (2) motorized stuff and (3) the lights.

I don't know whether your controller is DC or DCC - it could be either - actually, it doesn't matter!

 

I also don't know what make of controller you're using - but you might want to get a separate supply unit for the accessories. Gaugemaster sell a number of suitable supplies - judging by comments on this website (and elsewhere), this manufacturer seems to have an excellent reputation - they're not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

 

 

I suspect the Hornby lighting system is probably much the same as you'd find in a number of dollshouses - nothing wrong with that.

 

The thing that does concern me, though, is that this system is based on filament bulbs - so they're likely to generate a lot of heat (this could be a problem) - they're also likely to need replacing quite frequently.

 

For these reasons, I'd be more likely to use light emitting diodes (LEDs) - they run cool and last for ages if properly connected. As an electrical engineer, I know LEDs are quite fussy about what sort of "juice" they take - voltages and currents strictly limited - and they only conduct electricity in one direction - so you can forget about running them from accessory outputs.

 

This isn't as scary as it sounds - there are loads of articles about how to power them.

 

If you don't want to mess around with special "LED" power supplies, there's a much easier method. Some places have started selling white LED Christmas tree light sets - complete with plug-in power supplies. Given the choice, I'd probably go for the "icicle" sets - "extending" wires if needed (but being careful about which way round the LEDs are connected).

 

 

Personally, I'd go for LEDs every time - but they take a bit of getting used to. If you're interested in finding out about using them, you might like to check out an article in the May - June 2010 edition of the free online magazine Model Railroad Hobbyist.

 

 

If you really don't like the idea of LEDs, you might wish to check out another MRH article - this time in the Jan - Feb 2010 issue.

 

 

I hope you don't mind my ramblings - I also hope some of them are of help.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[HLT 0109]

 

The thing that does concern me, though, is that this system is based on filament bulbs - so they're likely to generate a lot of heat (this could be a problem) - they're also likely to need replacing quite frequently.

 

 

These are aspects that concerned me too but I have had neither problem so far and Joe Kyte said he had used his lights for years at exhibitions without frequent replacements. From my own observations, one thing to consider in choosing filament or LED lighting is what colour lighting you want. LEDs give a very bright, modern type of light whereas filaments give a light more suited to steam/early diesel era.

 

Harold.

[Huw Griffiths]

These are aspects that concerned me too but I have had neither problem so far and Joe Kyte said he had used his lights for years at exhibitions without frequent replacements. From my own observations, one thing to consider in choosing filament or LED lighting is what colour lighting you want. LEDs give a very bright, modern type of light whereas filaments give a light more suited to steam/early diesel era.

Fair comment.

 

You can actually get "warm white" LEDs from some places, but they tend to be expensive (and you need to be used to wiring LEDs).

 

A lot of "white" LEDs actually seem to be blue or violet ones in drag (or at least with some sort of "phosphor" included in them somewhere). This can sometimes be an issue.

 

Daylight is actually a lot more "blue" than some people realise - but it's still not as blue as a lot of "white" LEDs. You might be aware that TV studios often fit (filament) lights with blue "gel" filters when they want to mimic daylight.

 

Filament lights usually produce an orange light - which is why some photographers have been known to use films or filters "adjusted" for "tungsten light" - while oil and sodium lights are often yellowish. Orange and yellow LEDs are widely available - including in "high brightness" versions.

 

 

As for the filament bulbs, I suspect that both you and Joe Kyte are probably using them below their rated voltage - which is good practice when using them for model lighting. This would definitely extend their life.

 

Ultimately, you're not really trying to provide enough light for everyone to see everything else on your layout. What you're actually trying to do is create the appearance of there being some light.

 

 

Ironically, you might get more problems if you run the lights off a separate supply from everything else. As you increase the current you draw from a transformer, the voltage drops.

 

Saying that, it wouldn't surprise me if Hornby had chosen bulbs rated at a higher voltage than a lot of controller accessory outputs - this is one way of avoiding loads of complaints about bulbs going, from people buying and using their lighting system (many of whom probably know very little about electrics)!

 

Anyway, I'd better stop waffling.

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[steviesparx]

The Hornby C990 provides 16v AC output, and is rated at up to 800mA...

They are plentiful, and comparatively inexpensive - I have about 10 brand new ones if you're interested and want to try one, posted within the UK for £5 !

[JZ]

I use seperate supplies for my lighting and my points. For the points I use a 9v power supply from Maplin. This powers 10 Totoise point motors and 2 Fulgurex ones used for gates. My lighting uses LEDs, these I purchased from China (HK) via ebay, 20 warm white for 99p + £2 p+p and includes the resistors necessary to run from a 12v supply. For these it was Maplin again for a 3v supply. The white and warm white LEDs have a 3.2v forward voltage so can be used without the resistors with this supply, but if using coloured for other effects, fit the resistor as they only have a 2.2v forward voltage.

 

If you go down the Hornby lighting route, this stuff is exactly the same as my daughter uses in her dolls house, apart from the fancy stuff that is. Yet the dolls house stuff is cheaper.

[SNCF stephen]

Hello again,

 

Thanks to everyone for your replies to this topic. I have really appreciated reading through them (Huw's comments have been especially helpful). I am using a Gaugemaster DC controller (model number BS 4435). Its quite old but very reliable.

 

I shall be taking what everyone has said into account and having a play around with a few options as and when funds become available over the coming months. Luckily there is a dolls house shop not too far away from me so I might have a look there and see if I can get some bits to play around with.

 

Once again many many thanks to everyone.

 

Stephen

[Baby Deltic]

You could always buy a PC PSU. These come in a range of power outputs, but can deliver 5V or 12V with some serious current for driving loads of LED's and accessories. They also come in a protective case and meet electrical safety regulations.

[Huw Griffiths]

I shall be taking what everyone has said into account and having a play around with a few options as and when funds become available over the coming months. Luckily there is a dolls house shop not too far away from me so I might have a look there and see if I can get some bits to play around with.

While you're there, you might also wish to check out "tapewire" (it will probably be called something else - I'm not sure what).

 

This stuff is a very thin copper foil, with a mastic backing. It can be soldered (with care) - and allows you to run low voltage / low current wiring unobtrusively along model walls, prior to painting. It comes on rolls, in a variety of widths.

 

Over the years, I've used this stuff for loads of different jobs - as well as hidden wiring, I've also used it for repairing printed circuit boards and even fixing / connecting copper braiding on screened cables.

 

 

You can also get multiple connector versions and screw / clamp connectors, so you don't have to solder them - unfortunately, I can't speak through experience about either of these refinements.

 

 

Changing the subject, I have used old computer power supplies for electronics experiments. They are generally very good supplies, but I'd be wary about using them here.

 

I'm aware of 2 basic types - "plug in" and "built in". Both are designed to deliver DC - great if your accessories are designed for DC (say if they're based on LEDs or other electronics - and don't have rectifiers built in) - not so great if they're AC only (some motors are designed for DC - others, like the Faller ones, are AC).

 

Another issue is the current - computer supplies are designed to deliver quite a bit of current - some computer supplies also have feedback connections and need a minimum current to flow before they work properly.

 

Then we come to the cases these supplies come in. The "plug in" ones have proper housings that are safe for stand alone operation. By all means look at these if you've got loads of accessories that can run at 5V DC - but please be aware that some things need to run off separate supplies (either for safety reasons, or to make sure they don't interfere with each other).

 

"Built in" types need to be built into another housing - they often come in metal enclosures with loads of holes in them - and quite a few need fans, for forced cooling - they certainly have their uses, but I wouldn't suggest them here.

 

 

You're already using Gaugemaster - one of the best makes on the market - I'd suggest you stick with what you know. You might also wish to check their website - in case there's any useful information on there (specifications, manuals, possibly other downloads). From what you've told me, I see no reason to go for any other make - certainly no reason to do anything radical.

 

There's also no reason to rush headlong into anything.

 

Anyway, I think that's more than enough from me.

 

 

All the best,

 

Huw.

[Il Grifone]

It's best to keep lighting circuits seperate from other feeds, to avoid the lights varying in brightness with load. It would be worthwhile using a stabilised supply, for the same reason, if much switching of the lighting on and off is envisaged. The usual transformer supplied for model railways has poor regulation due to its high series resistance (which causes them to run warm).

The small bulbs run warm so they must be kept clear of plastic and it's a good idea to under run them at say 9v rather than 12 to lengthen their life. LEDs are much better in this respect.

As stated, the Hornby lighting is the same as that supplied for doll's houses. It can be obtained more cheaply from this source, but this depends on the particular supplier.

[Huw Griffiths]

I am using a Gaugemaster DC controller (model number BS 4435).

A further thought has occurred to me. I hope you don't mind me saying.

 

 

I'm not sure exactly which model controller you're using.

 

BS 4435 is actually the British Standard for extra low voltage indoor power supply units - in other words, it's a standard which ready made model railway controllers are expected to conform to.

 

I'm not aware of Gaugemaster doing a model called "DC" - but I could be wrong here.

 

In practice, I'm not too worried. I know their stuff is well made - and all outputs are clearly identified.

 

I can't comment about older models, but their website includes plenty of good technical information for all their current stuff.

 

 

David is talking sense about running lamps below their rated voltage - somewhere about 9V sounds fine to me.

 

I have actually seen 9V AC plug-in adaptors in the shops at various times (Tandy / Radio Shack used to sell them - I don't know if Maplin do them now). I've also seen them done as power adaptors for some electronic gadgets - so it's possible you might already have something suitable.

 

Incidentally, if you're only powering filament bulbs, it doesn't really matter whether you run them from AC or DC - all you're basically doing with them is heating up a wire. What is important, though, is making sure their supply voltage isn't too high.

 

Saying that, I'd be wary about adaptors - some of the cheap makes aren't as careful as they might be about "designed in" safety measures.

 

For this reason, I've always gone for reputable makes (the sort of stuff you'd get from places like Maplin, Farnell, Rapid, RS or Radio Shack) - and I've always advised other people to do the same. This is also why I'd happily recommend Gaugemaster, even though they've never been cheap - I know their stuff is good (and safe when used in line with their instructions).

 

 

I'm also very cautious about the way I wire things up - good quality connectors - suitable wire - neat wiring, clearly and logically laid out - everything trunked (or at least properly secured) - everything clearly labelled.

 

From all of this, you might get the impression that I did some electrical Health & Safety enforcement in my last job. You'd be right - and I saw some real shockers (pun intended). I'm also aware how dangerous transformers can be, if they're not properly enclosed.

 

If I'm starting to sound bossy, or like a broken record, please accept my apologies - but at least you know where I'm coming from.

 

Anyway, the lecture's over (I never wanted to give a lecture in the first place)!

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[SNCF stephen]

Thanks Il Grifone and also to Huw again. The controller is pictured below. It is well over 15 years old now but has performed faultlessly. When we got it, we were told it was the Rolls Royce of railway controllers and its certainly lived up to its name.

 

 

I appreciate the health and safety advice as well, its useful stuff to know. I was considering having some LED street lights but filament bulbs would be used internally to give a more realistic tint to what is a rural 1960's/1970's setting (in France). I was considering using the Hornby system (or one like it) because it does not involve soldering, I am not a fan of soldering and have never got the technique right which is why my current wiring set up is a mess (that does work though...).

 

I think I will use some sort of eparate power supply for the lights and consider using the new source for the water wheel as well.

 

All of the comments have been most helpful and are very much appreciate.

[Huw Griffiths]

I was considering using the Hornby system (or one like it) because it does not involve soldering, I am not a fan of soldering and have never got the technique right which is why my current wiring set up is a mess (that does work though...).

Stephen,

 

I'm not pushing you in the direction of electronics soldering, but it's actually nowhere near as scary as lots of people think.

 

(It's not as if it's white metal soldering - I've never been able to work that out!)

 

 

The Antex website contains a load of useful stuff about how to solder - if you follow the links in the centre of this page, you'll find 3 articles that give quite a good overview.

 

These articles also include a link to an article on the Everyday Practical Electronics website - it's well worth a read. While you're at it, I can also recommend following the link at the bottom left of the screen, labelled soldering guide photo gallery.

 

Between them, these articles tell you most of what you need to know to get started.

 

 

As for choice of soldering irons, I'd suggest you go for either Antex or Weller - both makes are well made - both have a very distinctive "feel" - and both have their fans. Over the years, I've acquired irons by both makes:

 

• Weller SI 25 D - as its name suggests, this one is rated at 25 W (Watts) - it's probably more powerful than you really need - and it's rather large. They also do a 40 W model, which looks similar. I'd use these for assembling brass kits.
• Weller WM 12 D - this is a very small iron, which I find great for soldering in tight spaces on circuit boards. It's a lovely piece of kit - but probably a bit "weedy" for general purpose use.
• Antex CS - as I'm used to Weller soldering irons, I didn't actively choose this one, but was given it. It soon "grew" on me. It's rated at about 17 W, but "punches above it's weight". I reckon this is probably the best general purpose soldering iron on the market, but I find that the hanging hook gets in the way a bit. The easy way to solve this problem is to get one of the bench stands sold for it - slide off the hook - and "file" the hook in your toolbox (in case you need it at a later date) - this transforms the handling.

When I was a first year electronics student, I was given some soldering exercises to sharpen up my skills:

 

• Soldering up a ladder framework to a piece of stripboard.
• Soldering together a cube, from pieces of solid wire.

Both these exercises work, but they are a bit boring! Since then, I worked as an instrumentation technician in a university civils department - some of the soldering (and wiring) I needed to do on strain gauges was a bit "special" - but I don't think it would be beyond most people with a bit of practice.

 

I know a lot of people seem to have a "mental block" about electronics soldering, but it isn't really anywhere near as difficult as it appears. Like a lot of things, I think practice is the key - that and taking your time. Whatever you do, please try not to worry about it.

 

 

By the way, if you do decide to give LED lighting a try at a later date, I'm aware of a thread on another site where someone used them with plastic screwcups to make some very effective HO yard lights - the basic idea would also work for lights on the side of buildings in O. I won't give you the link right now, because I'm not sure it would be a lot of help to you, but they're not actually too difficult to make. The awkward bit is concealing the second wire from the LED - but it is "do-able".

 

Similar comments would apply if anyone were trying to model gaslamps, from the end of the 19th century.

 

Modern streetlights are probably a bit more fiddly to assemble, because you want the light to come out of the side of the LEDs (looking end-on). If I were making them, I'd probably try learning to use surface mount LEDs - something for the future, perhaps.

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[Etched Pixels]

I have been modelling for a few years now but I still consider myself a novice, so I hope this question is not ridiculously silly:

 

I am currently looking into adding some lighting to my layouts buildings as well as having some street lighting. I have a controller with an accessory power supply (16v AC) and I currently power a CDU for the turnouts and a Faller water wheel off of this source.

 

My question is do you think I might be asking a bit much of this accessory power supply to use it to control the lights? If so then are there 16v accessory transformers available and can anyone reccommend a good one?

 

I am planning to use the new Hornby range of lighting because of how easy it looks to use. Are there any disadvantages to using this system?

 

Many thanks

Stephen

 

 

 

A lot of people use 16v AC for lighting but for the most part it is there as 16v AC because the accessory supply is simply tapped off the same 16v AC that goes into the regulated 12v DC for the locos.

 

A filament bulb running on 16v AC will last far less time than on the equivalent smoothed DC, and dropping the voltage level a bit further will make them last a lot longer still. These days personally I use the warm white/yellow LEDs (if neccessary attacked with felt tip pen to yellow them a bit more) because of the heat/power saving.

 

One of the cheapest sources I've found is to get one of the Bachmann or similar train set controllers that ebay is flooded with, wire the track outputs to the lighting circuit and turn the knob to a nice level. You get adjustible lighting and fairly smooth output for less than most 'proper' devices for the job.

[SNCF stephen]

Thanks again Huw and also many thanks to Etched Pixels. I remember my father soldered some LED's to work off the 12v DC controller when I was younger (it was actually for a lego project). It worked pretty well so I can see the benefits.

I am still debating which route to use, the LED route or the filament route. There are lots of pro's and cons that I will eventually try and evaluate, but this topic has definitely pointed some ways forward if I do decide to use filaments.

 

In terms of soldering, I have done it before and will likely do it again. What I need to sort out is the proper equipment and the right kind of solder and the like, I have 3 soldering Irons but I purchased them all without really knowing much about whats best for what. In the future I am looking to try a few different kinds of solder, I believe there are a few different kinds out there. I suppose it is a case of finding the best one for the job and also the best one for the kind of technique I use.