45s in east Anglia

[russ p]

1 minute ago, Chris Turnbull said:

I have dug out my spotting book from 1964 to 1968 to check that my memory has not been playing tricks and can confirm that what I said in my earlier post is correct.  This includes several visits to March in that period during which time I did not see any Peaks.  From the posts above it seems they did get to March but were not common and probably did not stay long.  You had to go to the ECML to see Peaks; for example, at Sandy on 9th April 1964 I recorded D178 whilst at St Neots on 5th August I noted D168 and D173.  At Peterborough on 1st September 1965 I saw D193.  I have records of several other spotting trips to the ECML when I saw no Peaks at all so they were clearly not a common sight. 

 

Chris Turnbull   

 

Thanks Chris 

 

I does point to march men probably learning them at some time in the 70s

[jonny777]

I've looked through the Whitemoor Junction pages, but sadly I only have mid-Jan to early Mar 1968, but it provides a random snapshot nevertheless. 

 

Peaks (I use the term loosely to describe the entire group of locos) were not common in that period, but there were visits by all 3 classes. 

 

Class 44 - D6 appeared on Jan 29th and D5 on Feb 8th. 

 

Class 45 - D128 on Jan 15th, D26 on Feb 9th, D115 also on Feb 9th, D80 on Feb 12th, D27 on Feb 22nd. 

 

Interestingly on Feb 22nd D27 is listed as 'Down hump pilot'. I am not sure that 140t locos were allowed over the hump, and the normal pilots were either class 08 or 11. However, that is what is written. 

 

Class 46 - D168 on Jan 29th, D186 on Feb 6th, D143 Feb 23rd. 

 

Unfortunately, headcodes were not noted; because they would have given far more information on the workings. I have no idea if certain locos ran round in the yards and went straight back out with a return working, thus not needing to visit the loco shed. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by jonny777

[jonny777]

8 minutes ago, Chris Turnbull said:

I have dug out my spotting book from 1964 to 1968 to check that my memory has not been playing tricks and can confirm that what I said in my earlier post is correct.  This includes several visits to March in that period during which time I did not see any Peaks.  From the posts above it seems they did get to March but were not common and probably did not stay long.  You had to go to the ECML to see Peaks; for example, at Sandy on 9th April 1964 I recorded D178 whilst at St Neots on 5th August I noted D168 and D173.  At Peterborough on 1st September 1965 I saw D193.  I have records of several other spotting trips to the ECML when I saw no Peaks at all so they were clearly not a common sight. 

 

Chris Turnbull   

 

Chris. You may think that my Whitemoor Junction register details conflict with your spotting notes, but I have noticed that many of the Peak visits noted by the signallers were during hours of darkness, and therefore not visible to the daytime spotter. 

 

 

[russ p]

7 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

I've looked through the Whitemoor Junction pages, but sadly I only have mid-Jan to early Mar 1968, but it provides a random snapshot nevertheless. 

 

Peaks (I use the term loosely to describe the entire group of locos) were not common in that period, but there were visits by all 3 classes. 

 

Class 44 - D6 appeared on Jan 29th and D5 on Feb 8th. 

 

Class 45 - D128 on Jan 15th, D26 on Feb 9th, D115 also on Feb 9th, D80 on Feb 12th, D27 on Feb 22nd. 

 

Interestingly on Feb 22nd D27 is listed as 'Down hump pilot'. I am not sure that 140t locos were allowed over the hump, and the normal pilots were either class 08 or 11. However, that is what is written. 

 

Class 46 - D168 on Jan 29th, D186 on Feb 6th, D143 Feb 23rd. 

 

Unfortunately, headcodes were not noted; because they would have given far more information on the workings. I have no idea if certain locos ran round in the yards and went straight back out with a return working, thus not needing to visit the loco shed. 

 

Thanks Jonny 

I wonder if the 45s were Leicester or Toton men as there is no evidence of them going further east which march men did.

I wonder if Peterborough men signed 46s as they worked on the east coast 

[jonny777]

23 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Thanks Jonny 

I wonder if the 45s were Leicester or Toton men as there is no evidence of them going further east which march men did.

I wonder if Peterborough men signed 46s as they worked on the east coast 

 

Yes, most probably. 

 

Also, a Peak at March would be a rarity, and so more likely to be photographed/reported by an enthusiast. Brush 2s handled about 70% of the traffic there in the late 60s and regular photos/reports of those would be monotonous. Also the system east of the ECML was the Cinderella for professional photographers, and very few seems to venture east of Peterborough for more than a few hours. 

 

Therefore I suspect that the general loco workings in that area have been skewed by the concentration on the rarer events. For instance, during the 7 week period only two BRCW type 2s were reported, and yet on some forums the thought seems to be they were almost daily visitors from Leicester. 

[russ p]

1 hour ago, jonny777 said:

 

Yes, most probably. 

 

Also, a Peak at March would be a rarity, and so more likely to be photographed/reported by an enthusiast. Brush 2s handled about 70% of the traffic there in the late 60s and regular photos/reports of those would be monotonous. Also the system east of the ECML was the Cinderella for professional photographers, and very few seems to venture east of Peterborough for more than a few hours. 

 

Therefore I suspect that the general loco workings in that area have been skewed by the concentration on the rarer events. For instance, during the 7 week period only two BRCW type 2s were reported, and yet on some forums the thought seems to be they were almost daily visitors from Leicester. 

 

Interesting you mention BRCW type twos , when I was involved with the north Norfolk railway they introduced a collecting policy and said the 27 had to go.

I later found out that that actual loco was on March's books for a very short period and there was a photograph of it at Lynn, can't remember what year it was and never did find out why it happened as you think March had plenty of brush twos so why someone thought they needed another type is anyone's guess 

[jonny777]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Interesting you mention BRCW type twos , when I was involved with the north Norfolk railway they introduced a collecting policy and said the 27 had to go.

I later found out that that actual loco was on March's books for a very short period and there was a photograph of it at Lynn, can't remember what year it was and never did find out why it happened as you think March had plenty of brush twos so why someone thought they needed another type is anyone's guess 

 

 

Would that be D5403 which was at March in Sept/Oct 1963? 

 

I wonder if they were just using it for comparison with the Brush 2s, but found it showed no advantage. 

[keefer]

Found a couple of mentions at derbysulzers: 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html (scroll down to 1963)

"The increasing number of Type 2s being delivered from Derby Works allowed for a reshuffle of some of Cricklewood's BRCW Type 2s. By the first week of September D5403 had been loaned from Cricklewood to March (31B), it would be transferred back to Cricklewood during October."

https://www.derbysulzers.com/63.html

"During September a block of the BRCW Type 2's moved from Cricklewood to Leicester to assist in the dieselisation of local freight workings. In October Saltley borrowed D5390 (and later 5389/94) from Leicester and brand new D7569 for crew training. The BRCW's were used for the Washwood Heath - Whitemoor freights, previously D5403 had been loaned to March for crew training for these workings. The diesels had taken over all workings from March, for by November 30th all steam working officially ended there."

[Chris Turnbull]

5 hours ago, jonny777 said:

Chris. You may think that my Whitemoor Junction register details conflict with your spotting notes, but I have noticed that many of the Peak visits noted by the signallers were during hours of darkness, and therefore not visible to the daytime spotter. 

 

Not in the slightest, Jonny.  I did not get to March that often (I was at school at the time) and did not spend too long there when I did but it does go to show that Peaks were the exception rather than the rule and did not venture any further east.  

 

For those not familiar with March here's a photo taken on 8th March 1969 showing far more usual motive power at that time - D5529

 

Chris T

 

[Zomboid]

D22 is presently in Essex, does that count?

[jonny777]

30 minutes ago, Chris Turnbull said:

 

Not in the slightest, Jonny.  I did not get to March that often (I was at school at the time) and did not spend too long there when I did but it does go to show that Peaks were the exception rather than the rule and did not venture any further east.  

 

For those not familiar with March here's a photo taken on 8th March 1969 showing far more usual motive power at that time - D5529

 

Chris T

 

 

 

Wow! Thanks very much Chris.

 

That looks like Whitemoor Junction box on the right, and the photo was taken the day before my 16th birthday. 

 

Wonderful stuff. 

[russ p]

2 hours ago, jonny777 said:

 

 

Would that be D5403 which was at March in Sept/Oct 1963? 

 

I wonder if they were just using it for comparison with the Brush 2s, but found it showed no advantage. 

 

It was 5386 and think it was late 60s can't remember where I saw it.

I would think for the work March's type twos did the brush would be more suitable. 

Am I right in thinking they had 24s for a brief period? 

[jonny777]

Yes Russ, March had lots in 1959/60. Many went there brand new, but seemed to migrate to London after 18 months or so. 

 

I'm not sure why they were moved away. Maybe they were found to be underpowered for some of the work that March did? 

 

It would be interesting to find out. 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Chris Turnbull said:

 

Not in the slightest, Jonny.  I did not get to March that often (I was at school at the time) and did not spend too long there when I did but it does go to show that Peaks were the exception rather than the rule and did not venture any further east.  

 

For those not familiar with March here's a photo taken on 8th March 1969 showing far more usual motive power at that time - D5529

 

Chris T

 

A slight aside; the tractors visible on the third wagon were second-hand ones, destined for Ireland. The traffic originated in Cambridge goods yard, and was usually carried on Borails, as seen here. Paul Shannon mentions this traffic in 'Railfreight since 1968- Wagonload'

[MidlandRed]

8 hours ago, keefer said:

Found a couple of mentions at derbysulzers: 

https://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html (scroll down to 1963)

"The increasing number of Type 2s being delivered from Derby Works allowed for a reshuffle of some of Cricklewood's BRCW Type 2s. By the first week of September D5403 had been loaned from Cricklewood to March (31B), it would be transferred back to Cricklewood during October."

https://www.derbysulzers.com/63.html

"During September a block of the BRCW Type 2's moved from Cricklewood to Leicester to assist in the dieselisation of local freight workings. In October Saltley borrowed D5390 (and later 5389/94) from Leicester and brand new D7569 for crew training. The BRCW's were used for the Washwood Heath - Whitemoor freights, previously D5403 had been loaned to March for crew training for these workings. The diesels had taken over all workings from March, for by November 30th all steam working officially ended there."

 

Interstingly, also quoted from the 1963 page  (class 24 and 25) on the same site "Any Peak venturing from the LMR or NER to Whitemoor was only allowed to do so if the roster scheduled the same crew to work the locomotive back home." This suggests the locos would not have worked beyond at that time. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by MidlandRed

[russ p]

8 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Interstingly, also quoted from the 1963 page  (class 24 and 25) on the same site "Any Peak venturing from the LMR or NER to Whitemoor was only allowed to do so if the roster scheduled the same crew to work the locomotive back home." This suggests the locos would not have worked beyond at that time. 

 

The same would have applied to kestrel as that worked to Whitemoor from Shirebrook quite a lot. 

I always think of that when I take a 68 round the joint line and remind myself that this is not the most powerful loco to work this route

[MyRule1]

On 10/03/2020 at 06:53, keefer said:

July 1st it worked the 08.30 Liverpool Street - Norwich and 11.46 return.

I am not sure I should say thanks for that as obviously my memory of when I started work for BR was incorrect.  as I thought I started in August. Mid-late June would have been possible.

 

Anyway as this thread seems to have moved on from Peaks, another anecdote about rare traction in East Anglia. Prior to the Internet there must have been a fairly efficient communications network, A friend phoned me up to say that he had heard that Class 20' were being trialled in East Anglia. So equipped with a day ranger ticket we set off. on what we though would be a likely route to see them. Bishops Stortford - Ely - Ipswich was our initial plan.

 

Imagine our surprise at our luck when we approached Ely  and saw a pair of 20's on the Bury line approaching Ely station. Somewhere I do actually have a picture of that moment but this was the only one I could locate..

 

As to date all I can saw is that it is likely to have been first half of the 70's. I never did find out why the 20's were there. My best guess is bringing in scrapped stock to Snailwell, as at that time Ely was often home to rows of coaches awaiting destruction.

 

 

 

[MyRule1]

I have now found my picture of a Peak (not sure of the Class) at Whitemoor Junction, March in the early 1970's. At the moment it Is undated but as I go though my note books of the period during the 3-12 weeks of lookdown I might find it. I know it is a poor photo, I am hoping that the negative will come to light and is of better quality.

 

The photo is taken from the foot bridge at the Peterborough end of the triangle.