Lima loco how clean must wheels be?

[GWR-fan]

A little background.  I have overhauled dozens of Lima locomotives and felt that there was little new to learn.  I have a Lima loco in new condition built in the later phase of  Lima production shortly prior the Hornby acquisition.  I feel that these locomotives are generally poorer performers than earlier models and for some reason the motors draw more current.  I had the loco sell this morning and prior packaging I did a final test run.  It had been tested a week or so ago and performed well.  On this morning's test run the locomotive's performance was abysmal. It would run perhaps an inch or two and even with gentle coaxing would simply refuse to move.  Of cause I first looked to the cleanliness of the track and the state of the wheels and considered them to be fine.  The track was clean and the wheels were shiny brass.

 

Perplexed I chose to do the following,  clean the armature thoroughly with no gain,  clean the brass pickup contact areas on both of the bogies with no gain, resolder all the wiring connections with no gain, replace the armature with no gain.  I removed the electrical connector to the forward bogie and with the motor bogie on the track I connected the electrical connector to the opposite rail and the motor performed just fine.  Obviously the pickup issue was in the unpowered bogie.  With the pickup wheels looking clean I thoroughly cleaned inside the bogie, reassembled and tested with no joy.  The problem had to be the wheels even though they looked clean and shiny.  There was not the oxide crud one usually sees on Lima wheels not used in a long time.   Only after a thorough mechanical cleaning with fine emery paper was I able to get reliable power pickup and acceptable performance.  The wheel treads looked to have a shiny varnish finish on them.  Only after removing this could I get the loco to run reliably.

Edited April 5, 2020 by GWR-fan
Additional info

[37114]

My experience of Lima was the wheels had to be spotless. New locos needed a thorough clean as you have done. Other suggestions. 

-Add more pickups, there were always some wheels that didn't collect power as standard 

- Check the gears are free of any flash/debris. 

- Get a feedback controller,  it is a revelation for Lima locos and gives much better slow speed control. 

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks.

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

A little background.  I have overhauled dozens of Lima locomotives and felt that there was little new to learn.  I have a Lima loco in new condition built in the later phase of  Lima production shortly prior the Hornby acquisition.  I feel that these locomotives are generally poorer performers than earlier models and for some reason the motors draw more current.  I had the loco sell this morning and prior packaging I did a final test run.  It had been tested a week or so ago and performed well.  On this morning's test run the locomotive's performance was abysmal. It would run perhaps an inch or two and even with gentle coaxing would simply refuse to move.  Of cause I first looked to the cleanliness of the track and the state of the wheels and considered them to be fine.  The track was clean and the wheels were shiny brass.

 

Perplexed I chose to do the following,  clean the armature thoroughly with no gain,  clean the brass pickup contact areas on both of the bogies with no gain, resolder all the wiring connections with no gain, replace the armature with no gain.  I removed the electrical connector to the forward bogie and with the motor bogie on the track I connected the electrical connector to the opposite rail and the motor performed just fine.  Obviously the pickup issue was in the unpowered bogie.  With the pickup wheels looking clean I thoroughly cleaned inside the bogie, reassembled and tested with no joy.  The problem had to be the wheels even though they looked clean and shiny.  There was not the oxide crud one usually sees on Lima wheels not used in a long time.   Only after a thorough mechanical cleaning with fine emery paper was I able to get reliable power pickup and acceptable performance.  The wheel treads looked to have a shiny varnish finish on them.  Only after removing this could I get the loco to run reliably.

 

I think that this was an intermittent production problem with Lima. I recall getting a delivery at the shop of a batch of locomotives which all had this problem - some sort of brown gunk that the wheels had been treated with that was non-conductive. It did not happen with all of their products.

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks.  Perhaps this is part of that failed production as the wheel finish is unlike other models produced in this period.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Suspect that what you cleaned off the unpowered wheeltyres was a naturally formed oxide since the last successful test run. If so, that oxide is going to recur, and if the new owner is one of the minority that actually run their purchases, they too may report a non-runner received.

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks.  I had considered this.  Normally with a Lima loco not run in a long time it may take a couple of spluttering laps before it settles down and runs well.  This loco though seemed to have a glossy "varnish" like finish unlike a "crusty" oxide coating seen on wheel treads after long periods of storage.  Only after a thorough removal of this shiny surface could I get reliable running.    I considered cancelling the sale but was reassured when the loco ran well.  

[The Johnster]

My experience of Lima locos is that they can perform very well even at slow speeds despite being geared for ridiculously high top speeds (they are prefect for train racing) if they are scrupulously and regularly cleaned, especially the tyres and the backs of the wheels where the pickups bear, and I second the comment about feedback controllers.  I would add that any traction tyres will worsen the situation by spreading crud all over your layout which the wheels will pick up next time round. 
 

They are made of a brass alloy with good electrical conductivity, but which is not completely smooth at a microscopic level, which means that they are prone to collecting crud.  My only remaining Lima item, a dmu, is only run very rarely, but needs a complete ‘deep clean’ every time.  

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I have just replaced a burnt out Lima ringfield motor in a small prairie with a new ringfield motor upgrade from Strathpefferjunction.com. Now it used to go like steaming s**t. But was really poor at low speeds. it is even faster now. A real pocket rocket. But it is now far more controllable and runs very nicely at slow speed. I believe part of the problem with Lima trains was the motors. This sorts out this problem. I can highly recommend you give them a try.The whole kit is less than £13,00 inc postage.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

My experience of Lima locos is that they can perform very well even at slow speeds despite being geared for ridiculously high top speeds (they are prefect for train racing) if they are scrupulously and regularly cleaned, especially the tyres and the backs of the wheels where the pickups bear, and I second the comment about feedback controllers.  I would add that any traction tyres will worsen the situation by spreading crud all over your layout which the wheels will pick up next time round. 
 

They are made of a brass alloy with good electrical conductivity, but which is not completely smooth at a microscopic level, which means that they are prone to collecting crud.  My only remaining Lima item, a dmu, is only run very rarely, but needs a complete ‘deep clean’ every time.  

Not sure I agree, the Lima wheels don't have good conductivity at all. It's probably almost all brass, which oxides almost immediately, giving poor pick up very soon.

[DCB]

The traction tyres make one hell of a mess of the tracks, especially if you get oil on them.  I cured my Lima pick up problems. On board battery power with CD motors instead of the standard ring field types. Now the problem is flange wear.

I don't think there is an easy cure for the pick up problems. Picking up from unpowered wheels is never really satisfactory, they are very difficult to clean, powered ones you just power up the bogie and apply a wire brush and let the motor do the work, unpowered? well pop them in a late chuck, spend five minutes with a needle file? Two power bogies, extra pickups so all drive wheels pick up, no traction tyres and plenty of weight works well as does running the locos instead of letting them sit on a shelf for weeks on end

 The drive gears are moulded into the traction tyre groove wheels so doing away with the traction tyres is not easy, you need to re  profile the tyres on lathe both traction tyre side and non traction tyre wheels, maybe ultrascale or someone does a conversion?

[The Johnster]

Replace traction tyres with Bullfrog Snot, or, if the grooved wheels are on the hidden side of the loco, ignore them; unless your track laying is very bad there will be no problems.

 

I'd agree than, once Satan's Expectorant is removed, frequent running is a major factor in keeping loco pickups, wheels, and rail heads clean.  

[kevinlms]

13 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

unpowered? well pop them in a late chuck, spend five minutes with a needle file?

An easier way to clean non powered wheels.

 

Take a length of track and pin it to a piece of board about 75mm wide (3in) and a piece of cloth 200mm length is a good size, cotton pajama material is perfect and staple it tight across the track, in the middle of the track length. Now take your favourite track cleaning fluid and put some on one half of your cloth, over the rails.

Now just push your vehicle by hand up and down the track with fluid on. The dirt should come off, leaving 2 black lines. Now dry the wheels, by pushing up and down the dry end. Jobs done.

For locos like diesels with 1 bogie powered, you can apply power to the track out beyond the wet end and slowly move it on the cloth, while powered wheels are spinning. Easy again.

 

If the black marks get too much, pull out your staples and move the cloth, so that a clean piece is over the rails and restaple. Once the cloth is too soiled, either wash it, or replace.

 

I could have done loads of vehicles while writing this! Once you have made up your section of track and have the fluid on hand, it takes only seconds to clean coach/wagon wheels.

[Mike Buckner]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Replace traction tyres with Bullfrog Snot

 

That's an interesting idea.  I wonder how badly does Bullfrog Snot deposit dirt on the track, compared to traction tyres, and compared to metal wheels without tyres?

[pheaton]

What loco is it?.....that final production runs of Lima 31s and 47s and 37s featured nickel silver wheels and it might be possible to pick these up as spares.

[Geevor Clayton Loco]

I've had Lima's with wheels that appear to be chemically blackened - did the come like that from the factory, or was it done by the owner?

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Geevor Clayton Loco said:

I've had Lima's with wheels that appear to be chemically blackened - did the come like that from the factory, or was it done by the owner?

Later ones were chemically blackened, but it gradually becomes removed over time, as part of the cleaning process.

Best thing to do, is add more pick ups. That will help to prevent arcing as the wheels make/lose contact. Remember arcing only occurs, when power is lost suddenly.

[Dodgydruid]

I got a very cheap and good condition Lima 9400 Pannier and I took it down to its undies, cleaning and trimming everything as per the video's out there and it refused to run.   I put on new pickups and nope... very poor but if I connected voltage to the terminals directly it ran like a loony.

 

So after new brushes, scrubbing all the motors, reflowing the solder joints and making a good solder joint on the pickups I by this time was at the point of stamping into history, if I had any hair it would have been plucked out completely argh

 

I got my panel wipe out and set at my routine of cleaning wheels and realised I had used a bit of 4000 grit on the Pannier but I hadn't actually cleaned the wheels, something I missed so I made a little running bath with some naptha which is what panel wipe is and putting some power to the motor directly, I cleaned the tyres and the insides of the flanges with a bit of rag atop a q tip and let the girl have her reins...

 

The little bath of naptha turned from clean to black very quickly, I mean absolutely manky the liquid became and the running problem?  Runs perfectly, indeed a leetle too energetic needing only two or three notches on my 4.5 Triang controller to send it wheel spinning down the track.

 

Thing is, the wheels looked clean but looking at what came off the wheels says they may look clean but are in fact very dirty.

 

So have made using a bit of scrap track a more dedicated bath, I have the body off, onto the track in the ex takeaway rice tub, drop in a bit of panel wipe, connect to the motor directly and using a bit of fine scotchbrite and then some cotton buds I thoroughly cleanse the muck off then out onto a microfibre cloth and allow to dry, relube with "Slime" oil on the axles, my live steam compound oil on the cogs (thick and sticky) and some on any lube pads and so far I have all but silenced noisy running loco's, no sparks or nasty burny smells

 

When finished bathing the wheels I just put on the lid to keep the stuff and it may look black but still can get many uses out of a few ml's of naptha.

 

For the old 03/04 type of engines I use Holts circuit board cleaner, it rips through packed, caked and burnt on carbon like nothing else, def recommend it.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Further to me previous post here I have been working on upgrading a Lima J50. As some has said here adding extra pick ups does help a great deal.

So for a simple solution to better running I would suggest replacement cd motor and add pick ups to the wheels with out them. It is really quite easy and painless.

I suggest you watch this video from 00Bill on You Tube to see haw easy it is. And no I am not 00Bill.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by cypherman