Coal deliveries on branch lines

[doilum]

The tipped coal supported another industry. There was the old man who could be seen around town on his bicycle with a sack on the cross bar. For a bag of coal he would put your coal away. Likewise most streets might have a couple of entrepreneurial 12 year olds charging half a crown. Once I reached that age it became one of my expected tasks, made more difficult as a larger lorry could no longer reverse down the shared drive and it all had to be barrowed.

Edited April 12, 2020 by doilum
Predictive text error

[whart57]

8 hours ago, PatB said:

most towns, even quite small ones, had a gasworks, which would require a regular supply.

 

Not necessarily supply by rail. In some towns, Stourport for example, the coal came down by canal. Before the war, the old gas works in Herne Bay got its coal from a barge that parked itself on the beach half a mile away. The coal was then carted to the gas works. The later, much larger, new gas works was built by the railway line and got its coal that way.

 

From a modeller's point of view this provides a problem. The old, mid Victorian, small gas works for which we have room on our layouts did not use enough to coal to justify a dedicated rail connection. If they weren't close to the line - and a good few were built before the railway arrived - then they would just cart their coal from the rail head. Expensive, but cheaper than relaying the town's gas mains.

 

The need for those gas pipes also meant the gas works had to be close to the centre of town whereas railway companies tended to think a two mile walk to the station was a bracing experience.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, doilum said:

The tipped coal supported another industry. There. Was the old man who could be seen around town on his bicycle with a sack on the cross bar. For a bag of coal he would put your coal away. Likewise most streets might have a couple of entrepreneurial 12 year olds charging half a crown. Once I reached that age it became one of my expected tasks, made more difficult as a larger lorry could no longer reverse down the shared drive and it all had to be narrowed.

I was still doing that in the 1980s, in my late 20s. I think we bought one delivery of coal in 8 years we lived near Wylam; all the rest were swapped for bunker filling and kindling-chopping.

[friscopete]

Barkingside Station on the LT  Central line  had night time deliveries of coal  .when I wa  a kid a used to hear steam trains in the night and wonder .I assumed the underground delivered the wagons  !!! Much later I found  J15's used to deliver coal wagons via Seven kings .

[eastglosmog]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Not necessarily supply by rail. In some towns, Stourport for example, the coal came down by canal. Before the war, the old gas works in Herne Bay got its coal from a barge that parked itself on the beach half a mile away. The coal was then carted to the gas works. The later, much larger, new gas works was built by the railway line and got its coal that way.

 

From a modeller's point of view this provides a problem. The old, mid Victorian, small gas works for which we have room on our layouts did not use enough to coal to justify a dedicated rail connection. If they weren't close to the line - and a good few were built before the railway arrived - then they would just cart their coal from the rail head. Expensive, but cheaper than relaying the town's gas mains.

 

The need for those gas pipes also meant the gas works had to be close to the centre of town whereas railway companies tended to think a two mile walk to the station was a bracing experience.

As an example, Charlbury town gas works was right beside the station on the down side, but did not have a siding or any direct rail access.  All the coal had to be carted round from the goods yard on the up side, over the bridge and into the gasworks, a journey of about 500 yards as opposed to the direct route of about 20.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Glossop gas works stood in Arundel Street near the A57 junction on the site now occupied by Aldi. The coal yard at the station had an entrance on the other side of the road near the railway bridge so coal had to be carted about 100 yards down the road. Any coke or by-products to be taken away by rail would have had to be taken to the main goods yard for loading.

Similarly Olive & Partington paper mill to the south of the town had timber for pulping delivered by rail. Up until about 1960 it was still being hauled through the town along with other supplies by traction engines. 

https://picturethepast.org.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/dchp000293/posterid/dchp000293.html

[PatB]

On 12/04/2020 at 18:35, whart57 said:

 

Not necessarily supply by rail. In some towns, Stourport for example, the coal came down by canal. Before the war, the old gas works in Herne Bay got its coal from a barge that parked itself on the beach half a mile away. The coal was then carted to the gas works. The later, much larger, new gas works was built by the railway line and got its coal that way.

 

From a modeller's point of view this provides a problem. The old, mid Victorian, small gas works for which we have room on our layouts did not use enough to coal to justify a dedicated rail connection. If they weren't close to the line - and a good few were built before the railway arrived - then they would just cart their coal from the rail head. Expensive, but cheaper than relaying the town's gas mains.

 

The need for those gas pipes also meant the gas works had to be close to the centre of town whereas railway companies tended to think a two mile walk to the station was a bracing experience.

True. However, even without a directly rail connected gasworks, you can still represent the traffic, with a regular delivery and removal of a 16-tonner or two, that need to be shunted separately from the wagons for the coal merchant. Assuming a fictional location, of course, or a real one wher coal for gas didn't arrive by road or water. 

[kandc_au]

Ashburton had coal deliveries for the Gas Works which were effectively unloaded to a horse and cart and delivered to the Gas Works on the other side of the station!

Khris

[IWCR]

Newport (Isle of Wight) had an unusual method of coal delivery for the gas works, the wagons were left on the the viaduct of the Ryde running line at night. The gas works was below the viaduct, coal was simply shoveled into a chute down the side of this. The empty wagons were then removed prior to the morning mail train.

This viaduct also had an opening section to allow large boats to use the river, this was left open overnight  and on one occasion a coal wagon ended up in the river.

 

Pete

[Compound2632]

On 11/04/2020 at 21:38, TheSignalEngineer said:

Not on a branch line but a suburban station, I did a few summer holiday shifts at the coal merchant managed by my great aunt in the early 1960s. The office and storage ground was in the local goods yard. IIRC there were three merchants on there.

The general coal came from Cannock Chase (e.g. West Cannock No.5) and North Warwickshire (e.g.. Baddesley). For specialist use there was an occasional wagon of anthracite from South Wales and coke from a local gas works.

 

 

Interesting that even at this date, coal for merchants at an ex-Midland station was still preferentially coming from collieries served by ex-Midland lines (though the West Cannock pits were also linked to the ex-LNWR lines on the Chase). 

 

On 12/04/2020 at 11:35, whart57 said:

Not necessarily supply by rail.

 

Even in a big city. Birmingham, which had the largest municipal gas operation in the country, had deliveries to one of its five gasworks, Adderley Street, by canal only. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Waterborne carriage is really a 'natural' for coal, coal being bulky, heavy, and not prone to spoil very rapidly, which is why a high proportion (about a third) of coal for London came by sea, mainly from the NE, even after railways were in place, and why all the big generating stations serving London were built along the river (good source of cooling water too).

 

If both source and destination could be reached by water, that was a better, cheaper way than using railways, which have higher infrastructure costs, and consume more fuel for each unit weight x distance transported than a good boat.

 

Coasters to small ports, with local distribution by sail-barge or railway, were a 'big thing' in coal transport until at least the 1930s all around southern England.

[Caledonian]

Something which intrigues me is the distribution of coal around the country after the creation of the NCB.

 

I can remember my mother haggling with the coalman in the 1960s [in Aberdeen] anent the coal she wanted from the back of his lorry. There were always at least two differently priced varieties on offer and for some reason I particularly remember  that Shilbottle coal from Northumberland was considered very superior.

 

This obviously implies that aside from dedicated streams of industrial supplies, British Railways were moving some very specific domestic coal varieties all over the country.

[Fat Controller]

35 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Waterborne carriage is really a 'natural' for coal, coal being bulky, heavy, and not prone to spoil very rapidly, which is why a high proportion (about a third) of coal for London came by sea, mainly from the NE, even after railways were in place, and why all the big generating stations serving London were built along the river (good source of cooling water too).

 

If both source and destination could be reached by water, that was a better, cheaper way than using railways, which have higher infrastructure costs, and consume more fuel for each unit weight x distance transported than a good boat.

 

Coasters to small ports, with local distribution by sail-barge or railway, were a 'big thing' in coal transport until at least the 1930s all around southern England.

There was regular traffic between the North Devon harbours and those at Burry Port and Llanelli, carrying metal ore one way, and coal the other. I didn't realise this until my wife started looking through our family trees.

[eastglosmog]

58 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Waterborne carriage is really a 'natural' for coal, coal being bulky, heavy, and not prone to spoil very rapidly, which is why a high proportion (about a third) of coal for London came by sea, mainly from the NE, even after railways were in place, and why all the big generating stations serving London were built along the river (good source of cooling water too).

 

If both source and destination could be reached by water, that was a better, cheaper way than using railways, which have higher infrastructure costs, and consume more fuel for each unit weight x distance transported than a good boat.

 

Coasters to small ports, with local distribution by sail-barge or railway, were a 'big thing' in coal transport until at least the 1930s all around southern England.

Until the 1960s at least, there was a law that railways were prevented from undercutting the prices of coastwise shipping (see Fiennes on rails), in order to protect the British coaster trade.

For a good description of cross Severn coal traffic, see the Portishead Coal Boats by Michael Winter.

[doilum]

5 hours ago, Caledonian said:

Something which intrigues me is the distribution of coal around the country after the creation of the NCB.

 

I can remember my mother haggling with the coalman in the 1960s [in Aberdeen] anent the coal she wanted from the back of his lorry. There were always at least two differently priced varieties on offer and for some reason I particularly remember  that Shilbottle coal from Northumberland was considered very superior.

 

This obviously implies that aside from dedicated streams of industrial supplies, British Railways were moving some very specific domestic coal varieties all over the country.

Hence my previous comment about coal from the Haigh Moor seam. I may have told the story elsewhere but my late father recalled being tasked with sorting two bucketfuls of HM from the mix of concessionary coal to ensure his mother's Christmas cakes cooked perfectly. And yes, each lump was washed and matched for size. There was more to a good fire than people realize.

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Even in a big city. Birmingham, which had the largest municipal gas operation in the country, had deliveries to one of its five gasworks, Adderley Street, by canal only.

When my great aunt joined the firm c1952 she worked for a while at the main office in Aston. At that time they were still getting some deliveries by canal.

[eastglosmog]

The big problem for transporting coal from the source colliery by canal was that coal mining usually led to uneven subsidence, which was disastrous for operation of a canal as the levels all went to pot, bridges and tunnels lost headroom (Glamorgan, Chesterfield and Ashby canals all succumbed and others such as the Leeds and Liverpool and Birmingham canals had major continuous bank raising projects).  A railway could cope with the change in level much easier.

[Mark Saunders]

On 15/04/2020 at 13:39, Caledonian said:

 

I can remember my mother haggling with the coalman in the 1960s [in Aberdeen] anent the coal she wanted from the back of his lorry. There were always at least two differently priced varieties on offer and for some reason I particularly remember  that Shilbottle coal from Northumberland was considered very superior.

 

 

According to my former colleagues who were originally Alnmouth Drivers, Shilbottle Best was burnt at Buckingham Palace!

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

According to my former colleagues who were originally Alnmouth Drivers, Shilbottle Best was burnt at Buckingham Palace!

 

Whereas, so the story goes, Birch Coppice coal was burnt at Windsor Castle.

[whart57]

And none was needed for Westminster as they generated their own hot air .........

[Compound2632]

Just now, whart57 said:

And none was needed for Westminster as they generated their own hot air .........

 

That reminds me of a documentary many years ago, presented by Tony Benn. He showed us the hot air engine in the basement that, he said, was for him an epitome of Parliament - producing useful work from hot air.

[The Johnster]

16 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

A railway could cope with the change in level much easier.

It still caused problems and was the cause of permanent speed restrictions though.  

[eastglosmog]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It still caused problems and was the cause of permanent speed restrictions though.  

Indeed so.  Going a bit OT, but here is a photograph of the effects on the Quakers Yard viaducts (not sure where it came from, it was in my archives).  The lines were still in use, though, which is more than can be said for the nearby Glamorgan Canal.

PS What does the spell checker have against Glamorgan? Wants to change it into Glam organ!